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I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem
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Old 21 Nov 2007, 12:35   #21 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Lets make an example of Commander Farsight and his seven buddies bodyguards (why he needs such an obscenely large entourage is a different question). We'll assume that all the crisis suits have shield generators for simplicity, and that there are 6 shield drones in the mix for complication. A bunch of fire comes in, and 4 saves are failed. 4 of the seven bodyguards take wounds, but no models are removed. Another unit fires at them, and 3 more saves are failed. Any hits taken by the multiwound crisis suits would kill 3 of the 4 that are already wounded, so the controlling player chooses to lose 3 shield drones. Another unit unloads on them, and 5 more saves are failed. The last 3 shield drones absorb 3 of the hits, leaving 2. These 2 must finish off 2 of the already-wounded crisis suits, leaving us with 2 wounded and 3 unwounded crisis suits. As more fire comes in, wounds must continue to be applied to the wounded suits before hitting the unwounded ones. Note that since Farsight has 4 wounds, you could apply a wound to him at some point, but once you start that he has to take another wound from every set of failed saves from then on.
I may be wrong as well, but here's my thoughts...

You're not doing it right. Separate units shooting at Farsight & Friends should never make a difference to how wounds are calculated. It would be too much of a hassle to remember whose been shot. When dealing with multi-wound models, every models of the 'majority' save (in this case, 3+) before removing the next lower save, and so on.

So, the Farsight entourage described above takes 20 'wounding hits'. The first 8 are going to hit the Crisis armour (note that Farsight and the Crisis are saving together because they have the same save.) The next 6 will hit the shield drones. And the remaining 6 will hit the Crisis Suits again.

Now, let's say the Crisis failed 6 of their saves, and the drones failed 2. Now we have 6 wounds on the Crisis Suits and 2 on the Drones. We still do not spread around the wounds. We must remove entire models where possible, so we lose 2 drones, and 3 Crisis Suits.

Since Farsight's saves are the same as the Crisis, he takes the saves with them. Thus, you could choose to Wound Farsight, but you need to remove whole models where possible, so if you wounded him first you'd have to kill him before moving on.
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Old 21 Nov 2007, 13:56   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Im fairly certain that sheild drones are a special case, as its not an armour, but an invun save that happens

in knightpersons example he has 4 wounded crisis suits, which should not happen, instead, you should remove 2 suits.

3 crisis suits
2 wounds each
3 hits, hits are allocated, and all wound, so 3 armour saves.
3 armour saves fail (booo)
1 suit dies, one takes a wound.

there should never be a situation in a multi wound squadren where more than one model has wounds applied to it EXCEPT in the case of a charicter with more wounds, vis a vis, a commander and his bodyguard.

in the Kroot case, if you had a situation where you took only one wound, the shaper could not take it, a regular kroot must.

Thats how I play.
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Old 21 Nov 2007, 14:57   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droids_Rule
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Lets make an example of Commander Farsight and his seven buddies bodyguards (why he needs such an obscenely large entourage is a different question). We'll assume that all the crisis suits have shield generators for simplicity, and that there are 6 shield drones in the mix for complication. A bunch of fire comes in, and 4 saves are failed. 4 of the seven bodyguards take wounds, but no models are removed. Another unit fires at them, and 3 more saves are failed. Any hits taken by the multiwound crisis suits would kill 3 of the 4 that are already wounded, so the controlling player chooses to lose 3 shield drones. Another unit unloads on them, and 5 more saves are failed. The last 3 shield drones absorb 3 of the hits, leaving 2. These 2 must finish off 2 of the already-wounded crisis suits, leaving us with 2 wounded and 3 unwounded crisis suits. As more fire comes in, wounds must continue to be applied to the wounded suits before hitting the unwounded ones. Note that since Farsight has 4 wounds, you could apply a wound to him at some point, but once you start that he has to take another wound from every set of failed saves from then on.
I may be wrong as well, but here's my thoughts...

You're not doing it right. Separate units shooting at Farsight & Friends should never make a difference to how wounds are calculated. It would be too much of a hassle to remember whose been shot. When dealing with multi-wound models, every models of the 'majority' save (in this case, 3+) before removing the next lower save, and so on.

So, the Farsight entourage described above takes 20 'wounding hits'. The first 8 are going to hit the Crisis armour (note that Farsight and the Crisis are saving together because they have the same save.) The next 6 will hit the shield drones. And the remaining 6 will hit the Crisis Suits again.

Now, let's say the Crisis failed 6 of their saves, and the drones failed 2. Now we have 6 wounds on the Crisis Suits and 2 on the Drones. We still do not spread around the wounds. We must remove entire models where possible, so we lose 2 drones, and 3 Crisis Suits.

Since Farsight's saves are the same as the Crisis, he takes the saves with them. Thus, you could choose to Wound Farsight, but you need to remove whole models where possible, so if you wounded him first you'd have to kill him before moving on.

...Except that the shield drones DO have the same save as the crisis suits (its in the Tau drone rules). Therefore, for any two failed saves dealt to the unit you could choose to remove a single crisis suit, or a pair of shield drones.
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Old 21 Nov 2007, 16:49   #24 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Ack. Shield Drones have the same save as Crisis?

Well my post still works, just switch it with, say... 8, um, Orks and 6 Gretchin? (if that's possible in game terms) :P
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Old 21 Nov 2007, 17:50   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

A squad including three Ogryns (3 wounds each) sustains four hits. Thus, three hits are assigned to Ogryn A, and one is assigned to Ogryn B. All saves are failed; Ogryn A is removed from play, Ogryn B suffers a wound.

A squad including a Crisis Battlesuit and two Shield Drones sustains 5 wounds. The Shield Drones have special rules and so must absorb as many hits as possible before any are allocated to the Crisis suit. They each have one wound, so one hit is allocated to each Drone, and then one is allocated to the Crisis suit, until all hits have been allocated.

That answer your question?
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Old 22 Nov 2007, 02:20   #26 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Knightperson: As far as I can see, you are completely wrong. Small Rulebook, page 27, 'multi-wound creatures' section. It states clearly that when an unit has several multi-wound models, WHOLE models must be REMOVED before wounds can be applied to next model. I think that's the most important rule here:

Whole models must be removed whenever possible

Keep that as a supreme rule and you can't go wrong. I think there is only one exception to that - when a model is specifically targetted due to some special rules.
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Old 22 Nov 2007, 03:40   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Smirnov
Knightperson: As far as I can see, you are completely wrong. Small Rulebook, page 27, 'multi-wound creatures' section. It states clearly that when an unit has several multi-wound models, WHOLE models must be REMOVED before wounds can be applied to next model. I think that's the most important rule here:

Whole models must be removed whenever possible

Keep that as a supreme rule and you can't go wrong. I think there is only one exception to that - when a model is specifically targetted due to some special rules.
Right, Creatures With More Than One Wound, which I sited as one of the rules I was trying to reconcile. If that was the only rule in the book, or if it was specified in the book that it's a higher-priority rule than Mixed Armor it would be easy. As I said, though, there are two apparently contradictory rules. Here's another piece of rule that I just found on page 26, top of the 2nd column.

"When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect a different model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model."

This line appears right after the information on armor saves, so it follows that the "wounding hits" are actual "wounds" from my terminology, not "woundable hits". Clearly, this rule is intended to prevent somebody taking 4 lascannon hits with 2 shield drones to save the suits they're attached to, but it doesn't say that's the only place the rule comes into play. This supports the method that I posted earlier. Even with hits that "wrap around", if the models all have the same save (which they do in my example), no model will take a 2nd wound from a set of fire until all the models in the unit have taken a first wound. The next set of fire will finish off some of the wounded units.

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Old 22 Nov 2007, 05:59   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
"When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect a different model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model."
You have to keep in mind that that line comes before the concept of multi-wound models is introduced, though. Thus, IMO, that rule assumes single wound models are being talked about, and the CWMTOW would override it. Though how to work it out specifically is not spelled out, I don't think there are that many situations where it's not to hard to figure out just how to handle several multi-wound models.

As for your example, knightperson, as said before, you can't spread wounds across several multi-wound models. In this particular case, mixed armor is not a factor at all. But even if it were, you'd still at the end consolidate wounds allocated on multi-wound models, on to as few multi-wound models as possible, even though the BGB does not specifically spell out that your supposed to do this. I don't know, maybe their are other ways of doing it, but spreading 3 wounds across 3 multi-wound models is clearly not the intent of the BGB.
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Old 22 Nov 2007, 15:49   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

There is no higher-priority. The only priority is to play in a way which doesn't break ANY rule.
These rules are contradictory only if you WANT them to be contradictory. Since your interpretation favours multi-wounded models (namely Tau), I can understand why.

The wounding hits must be dispersed, for the sake of taking (possibly mixed) armor saves, and for the sake that wounding hits cannot ever be wasted, unless everything killable was killed.

Removing models is a different matter though. A separate matter. You must understand that rules are abstract. It's no matter who actually saves, it matters how many saves are there to take. How many wounds are finally taken. And it matters that you decide who is removed.
That's the way I see it.
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Old 23 Nov 2007, 07:50   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: I am sooooo confused about this... wound assignment problem

1.
Quote:
"When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect a different model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model."
Heres the situation: Gabe's squad of 10 Guardsmen is ambushed by Josh's Tau, who score 10 hits. He rolls to wound, and lo and behold, 10 wound. "Ap 5... your squad's wiped out!"

Gabe smiles. "Look at this guy. He's reaaaally fat. He got shot to pieces, but his comrades will avenge his sacrifice of taking 10 horrible wounds, each enough to kill!"

Josh then shows him the above text and continues his bloody rampa... enlightened occupation in the name of Tau'va.

2. Lets say a 3-man unit of Crisis suits is hit by plasma fire. Three shots wound. So, in accordance with the "whole unit killed; no pansy-spreading wounding around" rule, ONE member of the team is plastered while another is wounded, but finds the courage to fight on with the lucky bastard who managed to dodge the plasma-fire.

3. Gabe now has those 10 Guardsmen again, except this time they have Gaunt with them! Gabe would like to put loads of wounds on Gaunt and keep his squad in fighting form, but alas!, WHENEVER whole model wound limits can be reached and a model CAN be removed, it is. You COULD kill Gaunt too keep the squad, just as three wounds on a mixed squad of two- and three-wounders kills one unit, but if it was the two-wounder you chose, someone else gets wounded for future reference.

[hr]

Now, the only thing, as I see it, is how mixed-armor rules complicate the God-given clarity the above sets out. Anyone willing to do so? I've got an essay to work on...
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