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powergaming, good or bad.............
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 10:00   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default powergaming, good or bad.............

whilst chatting nonsense (as usual) in my local GW, we got onto the subject of how we build our armies.


now then, i'm sure most people here know that i am a fanboy of the "no army is beardy" and "even powergamers can be good opponents" but this discussion got me thinking - i am a powergamer


as much as my lists are all designed for fun, they ALL have everything they need to destroy their opponents. i try to squeeze as much desructive power out of a codex as i can without going completely over the top (i did start out as daemonhunters after all ).


my point is - why do people hate powergamers ???

you dont ask your opponent in a game of chess what the backstory is so why should i come up with a fluff explination for my 40k armies?


i LOVE the competetive aspect of the game, this is i guess why i am so tolerent of people who bend RAW to the extremes or make seriously harsh lists (just search for siren and iron warriors :P)
not to mention i do enjoy poking holes in the rules myself


my newest incarnation of armylists includes a necron destroyer army (destroyer lord, 20 warriors, 15 destroyers, 3 heavy destroyers) and an eldar falcon army (farseer on jetbike, autarch on jetbike, 6 fire dragons, 6 scorpions, 6 harlequins, 2 squads of 4 jetbikes, 3 falcons)

these lists are designed to paste my opponents, i have no problems stating that. HOWEVER, i will only use them if my opponent has a suitably harsh list as well.


so then, why is it that i keep hearing "powergamers ruin the game"?? i have certainly spent a lot of time and money buying modelling/converting and painting my models, why shouldnt i use them to the best of my ability??


(PS - obviously i wouldnt use my tournament lists against a complete 12 year old, first game noob - i'm not quite that power hungry yet )


[/rant]
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 10:21   #2 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

I think it's because although it's not cheating, it's seen as stretching things to the limit just in order to beat your opponent as badly as possible.

Yes there's nothing legally wrong with it but in a social game which is meant to be interesting and entertaining for both parties, going out of your way to purposely tailor your list to include all manner of over-the-top options which leave the other guy with no chance whatsoever simply because he didn't comb through his codex and number crunch points to the nth degree tends to leave a bad taste in peoples mouths.

Fair enough if all powergaming players want to limit themselves to playing maxed out armies against other powergamers, then I'm sure we'd all be happy. Unfortunately it's when Mr 1337zor McKilly fields 500 autocannons against some innocent starting player who's messing about with the tyranids he got with the Macragge set and annihilates him in turn 2 that it turns ugly.

Yes the above example is slightly exaggerated but the general gist is there, and no-one likes losing without being able to put up a fight.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 10:25   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

Powergaming is fine, I am also a bit of a powergamer and try to make my lists as effective as possible. But at the same time, I still have kroot that look awesome with double pistols and cool poses. I just absolutely hate it when people bend the rules without breaking them, by using the rules in a way GW CLEARLY did not mean them to be used, but the wording allows only a real jerk to use the rules that way. And in my expierence, even most powergamers don't totally abuse how the game is meant to be played, even if they do have a siren bomb army. Even these so called cheesey or beardy lists like siren bomb or Nidzilla I say would be totally possible in a "real" 40k war. All you have to do is imagine a situation in which the tyranids would want a bunch of really tough huge monsters to completely break the will and resolve of the enemy. I imagine my tau hunter cadre (which is hybrid with some kroot) as an elite strike force sent in almost like a really big special ops team to hit certain targets or kill the enemies elite strike force. (All this is actually cooler fluff wise than a vanilla smurfs army anyway, since an elite force of already elite warriors is cooler)

I love the competitive aspect of 40k too, so people should chill out about so called "powergaming" (unless they use RAW to the extreme in a way like I mentioned above) because people play the game in different ways, but they still have fun. If you really don't like the other persons list, or think it is way to cheesey, ask them to change it for you. When I make a list designed to crush my opponent and my opponent didn't and he/she asks me to make it a little weaker then I gladly will, and if the "powergamer" doesn't want to, then play against another person.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 11:03   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Santo
I love the competitive aspect of 40k too, so people should chill out about so called "powergaming" (unless they use RAW to the extreme in a way like I mentioned above) because people play the game in different ways, but they still have fun. If you really don't like the other persons list, or think it is way to cheesey, ask them to change it for you. When I make a list designed to crush my opponent and my opponent didn't and he/she asks me to make it a little weaker then I gladly will, and if the "powergamer" doesn't want to, then play against another person.
this is exactly the point i am trying to get accross. there are only 2 reasons i will refuse a game with someone:

1) i look at their armylist and find that (accidentally) my list is pretty much completely geared to destroy them. last time i did that was with my plasma guns of death dark angels (3 devi squads of 10 men with 4 plsama cannons each - combat squadding to give me 8 shots of 2), my opponent said they wanted to use their pure deathwing army - i put my models away (especially as i had allied an =][= with 2 mystics)

2) i dont like the person.


i dont care if you have seen my list before and have spent the best part of a month tailoring the best armylist to take me on (in fact i encourage it). i just see that as a challenge


i openly encourage the new players in begginer games to put whatever they like on the board to take on an army of mine. my record was me fielding my 1500pts of daemonhunters against 5000pts of random stuff that the kids brought with them. needless to say i lost but it was a damned good laugh all round


rules bending is a grey area, even i have done it (i like annoying people by fleeting with my jetbike farseer every now and then ). but there are limits i wont go to - such as forcing a necron player to roll "dangerous" terrain for his wraiths/scarabs because they only ignore "difficult" terrain.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 11:41   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

I have relatively powergaming lists that I reserve for people who are just really arrogant about their supposed capabilities.


If you like over competitive gaming, that's fine you know, I respect that, different boats for different folks, but, a few important things to keep in mind for the "winning above all else" gamers:


a) Just because some people aren't winning against you, doesn't mean they're just crap, a lot of players constantly sacrifice game effectiveness for an overall "feel" of their army or to fit their favourite units in

b) It is perfectly valid for people to choose to play at a less competitive level. It does not make you a better hobbyist than them

c) Don't try to get defensive when people call you a powergamer, because you pretty much are. It doesn't mean powergaming is inherently wrong, that's up to the people to decide, but don't get all jumpy and aggressive.


But mostly, I'm against what I call top of the line competitive army lists (ie. 3 falcon harlie drop, shooty nidzilla, etc etc.) because I do not believe in tailoring lists or seeing opponent lists beforehand, and with those particular lists, if the opponent hasn't tailored theirs, there's a good chance that they're going to have no possible way to counter you in a random match up.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 12:07   #6 (permalink)
Kai
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

I can make this very simple.

Its fine that you like to play the game as competitively as you can. The problem is that not all people like to play the game this way, for a number of reasons (alot of which have already been covered by Crazed).

If you are paired with someone like this in a random match up at your local hobbycenter your lists, and your playing style, are more likely to win a lop sided victory than to have a closely fought game.

A lop sided victory is never fun for the loser (unless they are of a particulary masochist breed) but IS the big payoff given the reason you are playing (competitive/victory based). So basically you are sacrificing your opponents enjoyment for the sake of your own. This is selfish, childish and unsportsmanlike.

Remember that games like this are meant to be 'friendlies', not the competative atmosphere you'd find a tournament. Its fine to play games like this against people who are playing the same way, but to take this kind of playing style into a 'friendly' game you often ruin the game for your opponent.

Remember that, just as you have, they have spent alot of time and money on their army aswell (regardless of your opinion of their skill at either painting or army construction) and that that is alot of time, money and effort to spend on something for to continually recieve crushing defeats.

Human nature is such that most people don't want to stick at something they feel they perpetually suck at (when I worked for the store, during intro games it was rare for the kid who lost the intro game to want to continue playing. The winner on the other hand would want to know more 9 times out of 10). The sting is made worse because of all the money and time spent before you can even begin to attempt to play this game properly.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 12:16   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

I like playing competitive lists. I've been told that my tau were regarded as one of the most functional and efficient list seen. It had everything it needed, and was loaded down with very little fat. and i knew how to play it extremely well!

I see no problem with powerful builds, generally speaking. (sometimes though, the playing pitch and power level of some codices can be a bit much - though thanks to jervis, that's less of an issue these days) I enjoy playing someone with a good list who knows how to use it. I just want to have a reasonable chance of crumping them. then its cool. When its not, like yourself Mag, i get the "put army away" feeling...

My issue with "powergamers" isnt really the army lists. Its the people... I know some hyper-ultra-competitive people, and it just isnt fun playing with them. they're all about "the win" at all costs, and go so far as doing their utmost to piss off their opponents, or continually sing songs (abba are seriously annoying in 40k!) and all that kinda crap, just to unnerve them and make them make mistakes to that end. I play the game for fun. I play a game. Not psychological warfare. that just pisses me off.

I have a laugh when i play. win, lose or draw, thats what i try and do. But when a game is an ordeal with the other person, i lose my interest. and thats what "powergamers" are to me. twats, and generally, people i try to avoid...
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 12:42   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
I have relatively powergaming lists that I reserve for people who are just really arrogant about their supposed capabilities.
so do i, its just that my "usual" lists are semi-competitive as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
If you like over competitive gaming...
hold it there, i never said over competitive. i just build my lists to win (as opposed to win at all costs)


Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
a) Just because some people aren't winning against you, doesn't mean they're just Klkn, a lot of players constantly sacrifice game effectiveness for an overall "feel" of their army or to fit their favourite units in
are you aware of how much i suck at the game :P

the only successful armies i have are daemonhunters and blood angels. i have about 6 other armies as well.

i like to fit my favourite units in as well, in fact i have 3 daemonhosts in my daemonhunters list becuase the models are awesome and everyone i know says they suck (they have been shown the error of their puritan ways)


Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
b) It is perfectly valid for people to choose to play at a less competitive level. It does not make you a better hobbyist than them
you are getting a tad hot-headed here. i NEVER said i was a better hobbyist than ANYONE. all i said is that online, powergamers are constantly feeling the brunt of every argument going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
c) Don't try to get defensive when people call you a powergamer, because you pretty much are. It doesn't mean powergaming is inherently wrong, that's up to the people to decide, but don't get all jumpy and aggressive.
i like to debate/argue, its my nature

if that comes accross as too strong, i suggest you meet me and you will find that i am one of the most lenient powergamers going (i once let someone field a tree as the commander of the dark angels ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
But mostly, I'm against what I call top of the line competitive army lists (ie. 3 falcon harlie drop, shooty nidzilla, etc etc.) because I do not believe in tailoring lists or seeing opponent lists beforehand, and with those particular lists, if the opponent hasn't tailored theirs, there's a good chance that they're going to have no possible way to counter you in a random match up.
i have no objections to anyone fielding those lists. regardless of what i play with. i think that harlequins are overrated, as are nidzilla armylists.

i REFUSE to tailor my armylist to an opponent and always turn up to my GW with my list(s) already typed and printed out. i have no objections to my opponent tailoring their list on the spot to counter me.

i seem to be getting a bit heated myself, my apologies. i just fail to see how being competitive is a bad thing (especially as EVERY man, woman and child i have EVER met wants to win the game :P)


Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Remember that games like this are meant to be 'friendlies', not the competative atmosphere you'd find a tournament. Its fine to play games like this against people who are playing the same way, but to take this kind of playing style into a 'friendly' game you often ruin the game for your opponent.
this is why i bring the following to my GW every time i go:

1) my current competitive list (currently blood angels)

2) a "friendly" competitive list (currently daemonhunters)

3) a fun list (currently dark angels, soon to be guard)


i have each armylist printed and ready and i allow my opponent to pick which army they want to face up against (making sure they know which list is which ). this means i NEVER end up with a 1-way game and that i always play someone with an appropriate army.


i have suffered my fair share of massacres, and to be honest,i learned more from them that i have any other games (you learn the first time you use dark eldar no to spread out for example ). this does not mean that i try to completely obliterate my opponent with complete disregard to their enjoyment, i am often seen charging in with silly tactics to make the game interesting (such as my farseer with 1 attack charges a defiler, destroys it and then gets charged by 8 khorne berzerkers, 5 turns later they cause a wound - fortune is awsome with a jetbike - and she gets cut down for failing her ld 10 morale test )


i like to have fun in all my games, i just like to be as tactical as i can.



@ deadnight: i just produced a novel of a reply to make the point you did in 4 paragraphs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadnight
My issue with "powergamers" isnt really the army lists. Its the people... I know some hyper-ultra-competitive people, and it just isnt fun playing with them. they're all about "the win" at all costs, and go so far as doing their utmost to Aulma off their opponents, or continually sing songs (abba are seriously annoying in 40k!) and all that kinda Klkn, just to unnerve them and make them make mistakes to that end. I play the game for fun. I play a game. Not psychological warfare. that just pisses me off.
this i 100% completely and utterly aggree with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deadnight
I have a laugh when i play. win, lose or draw, thats what i try and do. But when a game is an ordeal with the other person, i lose my interest. and thats what "powergamers" are to me. Fa'ta'kn'era, and generally, people i try to avoid...
i dont call those people "powergamers", i call them "a waste of good oxygen". yes they ruin the game and there is no point in playing them.

this doesnt mean that competitive players cant be fun to play against.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 12:50   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

El Magnifico:

You realize none of that was targetted at you or anybody in this thread right? :


I don't know how you play and just based on a few descriptions it'll be completely unfair for me to judge anyway. I'm targetting the powergamers that I do know and applying this to a general model.
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Old 06 Nov 2007, 13:22   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: powergaming, good or bad.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
El Magnifico:

You realize none of that was targetted at you or anybody in this thread right? :


I don't know how you play and just based on a few descriptions it'll be completely unfair for me to judge anyway. I'm targetting the powergamers that I do know and applying this to a general model.
so i guess this does apply then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by myself (in my post above)
i seem to be getting a bit heated myself, my apologies
:funny:


but i do know ONE powergamer who is in for the win. i have never beaten him but i get closer each game (it has to be said, untill i picked up his codex - dark eldar - i diddnt realise how much he cheats during his games)

i dont enjoy playing that guy but i love the tactical style of gameplay i have to adopt to take him on (the last game we had he won by just 170odd points - a big improvemnent on 1900pts in a 1500pts game )

but i fully acknowledge myself as a powergamer, i just like to have fun AS WELL
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