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Does Pile-In mean surround?
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Old 27 Oct 2007, 07:02   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Does Pile-In mean surround?

I beseech the wisdom of the 'Net to settle a (rather heated) debate from my last gaming session. Or failing that, some insight from those who read TO...

My opponent was playing Grey Knights with a Cletus Assassin (apologies for mis-spelling it: phonics are all I have to go on). The Assassin Deep Struck into one of my units, flamed, and assaulted them, but the dice rolls on both sides were low so nobody died. At pile-in he argued that since I outnumbered the assassin about 8 to 1 I was required to fully surround her with fire warriors. This would prevent my kroot unit which was on the side from assaulting because they couldn't get into base-base contact with the assassin. Right before close combat on my next turn, the assassin jumps 2 inches out, close enough that a unit she was just in assault with could consolidate back in and deny her another flamer shot. If the kroot were able to charge, then they could consolidate in and the fire warriors wouldn't have to be in assault the next round. Here's the question: am I truly required to surround at pile-in or just get everybody close enough that they are engaged?

Argument for surround (which he used): Pile-in follows the same rules as charge: go for base-base with an unengaged model first, then try for base-base with an engaged model, then try for within 2" of a friendly model that's in base-base. Since there is only one of his and so many of mine I must move as many models as possible into base-base (which would completely surround) before using the "within 2 inches" rule.

Argument for engage (which I used): Charges must be linear; you can't turn a corner part way through. The first few models that pile-in will be in base-base contact, but the rest of them would have to loop around their squadmates in order to get base-base, which they can't do. They also can't go through or between the other models because regular movement rules state that a model can't pass through a gap between models that is smaller than his own base.

What do you think?
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Old 27 Oct 2007, 07:39   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

Difficult one that im not sure if your fire warriors have to go round each other or not... you'll have to wait for a more experienced person to reply, eg not me, sorry i couldnt help.
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Old 27 Oct 2007, 07:47   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

Yes and No.

When doing a pile in move your troops up to 6" in the shortest possible route to get into combat. This is important. It's not linear or non linear- it's how your troops can get there fastest. This means that if you can move models into the 2" zone and they travel less than moving to surround the enemy, it's legal. In fact, since the wording is "Up to six inches" you could conceivably move a group of troops the minimum to be considered in combat, and use the fact that you can't move through friendly troops or gaps smaller than a models base, and screen the rest of the unit from the combat. They would end up just out of range to attack.
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Old 27 Oct 2007, 07:51   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

From what I can recall (I don't have my rulebook one hand), you re required to bring as many models into base contact as possible, so your friend is right.
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Old 27 Oct 2007, 07:56   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

To the best of my knowledge, A pile-in is treated in a similar manner to charging.
You have to get as many models in base-to-base as possible, and you can move them up to 6", in any way, to get there.
You do not have to surround the enemy model(s), but you do have to get as many as the 6" will allow in to the 2" engaged radius.
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Old 27 Oct 2007, 08:51   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

It is just like a charge move, so you have to try to get into base-to-base if you have enough movement.

But models that are engaged do not have to move. A model that is within 2" of the models currently in base-to-base is engaged. The only models that have to pile in are those that are further than 2" from a friendly model in base-to-base (i.e. those who were locked but not engaged). So by the letter of the rules, your friend was wrong about that with no question. That said, that is not how the example picture handles it.

If your opponent is being weird about it, there are ways to work it to your advantage. The first model that piles in probably has to follow "closest-to-closest". But the order for the rest is up to you. If you move the furthest first and work your way forward, you can probably keep any of your models from having enough movement to get around the back. Your models can not move through each other. They can loop around, but you can try to arrange it so that they won't have enough movement to do so. That should give you enough of a window to get another unit in.
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Old 29 Oct 2007, 01:42   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
It is just like a charge move, so you have to try to get into base-to-base if you have enough movement.

But models that are engaged do not have to move. A model that is within 2" of the models currently in base-to-base is engaged. The only models that have to pile in are those that are further than 2" from a friendly model in base-to-base (i.e. those who were locked but not engaged). So by the letter of the rules, your friend was wrong about that with no question. That said, that is not how the example picture handles it.
Actually, the assassin didn't initially charge a fire warrior, she charged the Ethereal leading the squad, who is an IC. I think that means that none of the fire warriors were engaged from being "within two inches of a friendly in base-to-base", so they did have to move to engage.

Quote:
If your opponent is being weird about it, there are ways to work it to your advantage. The first model that piles in probably has to follow "closest-to-closest". But the order for the rest is up to you. If you move the furthest first and work your way forward, you can probably keep any of your models from having enough movement to get around the back. Your models can not move through each other. They can loop around, but you can try to arrange it so that they won't have enough movement to do so. That should give you enough of a window to get another unit in.
I don't think I would have been able to avoid surrounding in this case because I had too many models too far to the side. In the future, though, I will remember that trick. As well as put the ethereal in the middle of the squad instead of the back where I foolishly thought he'd be safer.
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Old 29 Oct 2007, 02:01   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does Pile-In mean surround?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightperson
Actually, the assassin didn't initially charge a fire warrior, she charged the Ethereal leading the squad, who is an IC. I think that means that none of the fire warriors were engaged from being "within two inches of a friendly in base-to-base", so they did have to move to engage.
That is correct, then. Independent characters can not bring other models into a combat by exerting a 2" engagement range, nor can they be brought in by the rest of the unit. So Ethereals should always be placed right in the middle. Your opponent can not charge the Ethereal unless they can position themselves so that the Ethereal is the closest model before they charge. And you usually don't want the Ethereal dying in the first round of combat.

So yes, in that case you would be stuck piling in with everyone. In this specific case, I would actually have tried to move as many Fire Warriors around the back side as I could. This would put a limit how far the Assassin could jump back and get out of combat, potentially keeping her from using the flamer again and getting the bonus attack for charging. It looks like that is basically what you did.
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