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What Makes a Shooty Army?
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 18:32   #1 (permalink)
77
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Default What Makes a Shooty Army?

Here's the context for this topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Orange
The Tyranids can get a lot of shooting, but it's mostly short range weapons that you use once before assaulting. Trying to go shooty with nids is really pulling the army in a directing it really wasn't designed for IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 77
@The Orange - Shooty Tyranids are extremely potent. Gaunts, Warriors with varying guns, Sniperfex, Zoanthropes, Biovores, Tyrants - these are all units that can dish out a lot of dakka. Yes it is short range in some cases, but so are units like Guardians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Orange
I don't think I said they weren't potent, but IMO their not very shooty, because of their short range. IMO without range your basically running up, shooting, and then assaulting, and that IMO is not a shooting army. It may be a lot of dakka, but It's not an army based mainly on shooting. Nids (IMO) lack range as well as high powered guns. Most of their weapons are short range, and usually lack AP power as well. They have some guns that are long range and power full, but those are few and far between, being restricted to zonethropes, the hive tyrant, and dakka'fexes only. Biovores may be another options to increase the shooting of your army, but they don't look particularly effective, you only get one unit of them, and I think most people 'nid players shun them, even if they like them.
This all got me wondering, what really makes a "shooty" army. Is it just cranking out as much dakka as possible or is it putting out more quality shots at a consistently greater distance?

If I had to classify what a "shooty" army is, I would say an army whose primary method of engaging the opponent is through ranged attacks.

I feel that Tyranids definitely can fill this role given the options that I listed above. 12" is not really short range when you consider that many other races rely on that range to be effective as well as they utilize Rapid Firing.

I would also think that AP does not have as large a factor in the shooty army. Weight of fire can accomplish, in many instances, more casualties that low AP weapons that typically have fewer shots. Guard players have "-" AP, Gaunts use AP5 or worse, orks are the same, etc. I would personally prefer shooting 16-20 shots that re-roll to wound on Terminators rather than something like an Assault Cannon, Plasma or Star Cannon. The volume of fire will win the day.

I think that Tyranids and other armies that rely on pure dakka can be classed as a "shooty" army.

What do you think?
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 18:50   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

I think you summed it up nicely with

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77
If I had to classify what a "shooty" army is, I would say an army whose primary method of engaging the opponent is through ranged attacks.
Having been on the reciveing end of "Shooty" tyranid armies I can honestly say they're one of the most potent armies in the game.

I thought I had more to add, but I guess not.
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 19:30   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

I agree. Guns over fists is pretty much what characterizes a shooty army rather than range (although shooty doesn't necessarily mean they can't throw a punch either). Your traditional guard army is more of a long-ranged shooty force, while a bunch of nids with a devourer fetish is a closer range type. In the end, they're both shooty, one just works a lil different. What's funny is that due to rapid fire rules close range shooty can be the most lethal. Just ask a sister player.
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 20:09   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

Shooty basically just means that you concentrate on ranged combat, rather than assault. Basically, if you're shooty, you'll be doing most of your damage in the Shooting phase, and trying to keep your opponent from assaulting you. Tyranids are unusual because, for the most part, their units are designed to assault (After all, a lot of them can assault 12 inches!), but many of their units can be decked out for ranged combat, too.

It's true that close-ranged shooty can be effective for most Infantry, but, if you don't want to be assaulted, it might be a good idea to sacrifice pure damage capacity for range, unless you're capable of Fish of Fury-ing or are just planning on wiping out the entire target squad.
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 20:27   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

Heya,

I've always seen the Imperial Guard as a 'quantity over quality' shooty army, due to the sheer amount of ranged weaponry they can bring to a battle. Whilst on the other hand the Tau are a 'quality over quantity' shooty army as they have a better range of weapons, yet they are not as numerous as those that the Imperial Guard can muster. Then of course you have 'close range' shooty and 'long range shooty,' the SIGAFH is a good example of a 'long range' shooty army whilst a 'Nid Devourer whore army is a good example of a 'short range' shooty army. To conclude, the term 'shooty' draws in a plethora of categories, which each have many subcategories.

In some ways this applies to assault heavy armies, you have small assault heavy armies like Khornate Chaos Marines for example, and large assault heavy armies like Orks. Simply put shooty is a very broad term which can mean many things, you could have a shooty unit or a shooty army for that matter, but most people know that the term shooty is a term used for shooting heavy armies and that there are numberless units and armies which can fill the seemingly endless pit of meaning which is shooty.
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 20:36   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

I guess my issue was the inference that Tyranids were not designed to be a shooty army, when, considering all the firepower they can put out, there is a good argument to say that they are designed to be shooty.

That is probably the reason I started Tyranids in the first place - they are so versatile and can do assault or shooting very well. The caveat for shooting is that you need to really focus on it to make it worthwhile.
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Old 24 Oct 2007, 20:50   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77
I guess my issue was the inference that Tyranids were not designed to be a shooty army, when, considering all the firepower they can put out, there is a good argument to say that they are designed to be shooty.

That is probably the reason I started Tyranids in the first place - they are so versatile and can do assault or shooting very well. The caveat for shooting is that you need to really focus on it to make it worthwhile.
As bizarre as it may seem, I have seen and been on the opposite side of some truly fearsome Ork shooty armies. They may have a terrible BS skill, but the amount of Dakka they can muster is incredible! Massed Big Shoota's or massed Rokkits are lethal, yet underestimated. My brother plays a shooty MC heavy 'Nid force, and after my first battle against them I found the hail of firepower he could through out more deadly than the C.C. attacks he could pull off, and I was using a power armoured force! It's all too easy to judge a book by it's cover.
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Old 25 Oct 2007, 01:42   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

I feel that the idea of an army's main method of attack being ranged makes them a shooty army is sensible.

What bugs me is that nids and orks CAN do this. I see both these forces as being assault oriented, and I understand the need for an army to be able to field a wide variety of armies but I think neither of these should be able to field reliable shooty armies. I mean, it's not like Nids have a lack of variety in their force composition. They can do: nidzilla, swarm, balanced, genestealer army, and shooty forces. Even after shooty nids are removed that's still four types of army they can make, all of which are viable. The Orks being able to make a shooty army is less irksome to me because they need all the help they can get, the poor bastards. I feel that every army should be able to field multiple types of armies, but that they should all fit under the army's typical style.

Just my two cents.
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Old 25 Oct 2007, 05:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

Quote:
Originally Posted by korik1
I feel that the idea of an army's main method of attack being ranged makes them a shooty army is sensible.

What bugs me is that nids and orks CAN do this. I see both these forces as being assault oriented, and I understand the need for an army to be able to field a wide variety of armies but I think neither of these should be able to field reliable shooty armies. I mean, it's not like Nids have a lack of variety in their force composition. They can do: nidzilla, swarm, balanced, genestealer army, and shooty forces. Even after shooty nids are removed that's still four types of army they can make, all of which are viable.

Just my two cents.
The only difference, fluff-wise, I see with shooty 'nid armies is that they're devouring you from a distance, rather than up close. Dead/dissolved biomass is still biomass.

Ranged Symbiotes
Fleshborers, Devourers: Symbiotes that eat you from a distance.
Spinefists, Barbed Stranglers: Symbiotes that pin/trap prey creatures until they can be safely devoured.
Venom Cannons, Deathspitters: Symbiotes that start digesting/dissolving prey organisms on contact.

Close Combat Symbiotes
Scything Talons, Rending Claws: Killing prey organisms, rendering them safe to eat.
Crushing Claws, Lash Whips: Trap/pin/hold prey for slaughter/food.
Bio-plasma: Instant digestion pool.

As you can see, there are symbiotes on both lists that perform similar tasks, one set simply adds range, and relative safety for the host creature. And as to Tyranids not supposed to be shooty: They evolved over millions years, devouring everything in sight. You seriously think they never had to deal with ranged threats/long range warfare that meant they couldn't rely on assaulting?
And from being destroyed constantly at long range, the 'nids would have bio-engineered a way to fight back, and win.
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Old 25 Oct 2007, 05:53   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: What Makes a Shooty Army?

I'd agree with the origional sentiment, an army that does most of it's damage from range and is more designed towards outgunning and not outslashing their opponents is a shooty army. Those that are 50/50 or roughly that are balanced, and those that tip more towards slashing are close combat armies. Though sometimes there is a blur...

My Raven Guard have currently 4 Assault Squads, 2 Tacticals, 1 Devastator and 2 Scout Squads. The Assault Squads are all close combat of course, the other squads are all shooting. While the scouts harass a foe and herd or lure them into the trap, the Tacticals and Devastators provide a more solid lure and firebase, targeting very tough enemies and softening them up for the killing blow, crippling transports, overwhelming enemy firepower and in general laying the trap carefully and making sure the enemy has not the strength to resist when the killing blow descends, and when it does it is the Assault Squads and the 2 HQs, who rush in with Furious Charge to overwhelm their weakened foes before they can even try to defend themselves and move on, sweeping the enemies from the field. Ok so there was a lot of rhetoric in that but you get the idea, the battleplan rellies heavily on both shooting and assault but assault is the more weighty of the two groups in points and usually ends up doing more damage to the enemies in numbers, hence I consider the force assault oriented, though in it's actual tactics and composition in terms of bodies it may be more akin to a balanced force. It's not always clear...

Of course there are also many types of shooty armies, there is mobile shooty, ranged shooty, and close ranged shooty. Mobile shooty armies include mechanised Tau, Saim Han Eldar etc. Armies who do their damage through shooting generally but who use their mobility to capitalize on local fire superiority, rather than total weight of firepower and ordanance. On the other hand armies such as infantry guard can do just that, throwing down such a sheer mass of gunfire, artillery, and heavy weapons. While lastly a Space Marine army such as the Salamanders, can generally be geared to do most of their damage in short ranged gunfire exchanges, at or around 12" range where their potent meltas and flamers and sheer weight of bolter fire most hurts a foe. However unlike Mechanised Tau who sometimes do the same thing to bring their potent pulse rifles to bear, the Salamanders don't necessarily relly on better mobility.

There are many forms any particular army can take, whether mech, hybrid, static or shooty, cc or balanced doesn't really fully describe an army and are only loose parameters at best in my opinion.
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