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Skimmers
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Old 19 Oct 2007, 20:31   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Skimmers

Hey, guys. I just have a few things to say (read... complain ~.^) about skimmers. It has come to my attention that, despite the lower armour values that skimmers have, they are infinitely better than their treaded companions. As a Tau player, I obviously field skimmers, so this isn't just a complaint about Eldar or Dark Eldar or whoever else fields these things.

Although the "glancing hit only" rule doesn't make skimmers too hard to kill on its own (due to the 'immobilization death' rule), nearly every army can take an item to get around it. Eldar, most notably, have tanks that, with the right upgrades, can only be neutralized 1 out of 9 times. Tau have the decoy launchers, which, while not nearly so effective, have saved my vehicles more time than I care to count.

This rule completely neutralizes the power of tank-busting weapons. While a Landraider (supposedly one of the heaviest tanks in existence), can be easily cracked open on the first turn by a Brightlance or Railgun, a Tau tank can survive 4 or 5 shots from one of these weapons without more than a little bit of good luck.

Am I the only one who thinks that the glancing skimmer rule should be changed to be more in line with the "obscured target" rule? Glancing hits only or 4+, rather than all the time? I don't mind the Land Speeder, or the Pirhana, or even the Dark Eldar vehicles, as these light vehicles can be destroyed pretty easily just due to the fact that they can be hurt by almost anything, but any skimmers with Armour 12 or above are just annoying. Or else people should be able to get weapons that will ignore this rule. Tau seeker missiles, for example, or Ordinance shots.

What do you guys think?
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Old 19 Oct 2007, 21:14   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmers

No I think it works out well as it is. The reason skimmers get that rule is to represent their speed and agility . If that rule was lost or downgraded they would need to reevaluate all of the vehicles used , likely resulting in a points drop for skimmers or a increase in ground vehicles . Both results would not be good for the game as a whole.
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Old 19 Oct 2007, 21:30   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmers

You also note that skimmers in general have less firepower and less armor than their ground based equivalents. Yes a Tau Hammerhead or Eldar Falcon will stand up to more lascannon shots, but throw a bunch of krak missiles, plasma shots or missile pods at it and it falls easier than a Land Raider which shrugs off all of those with impunity.

Balance is the key, everything has strengths and weaknesses and works in different ways, otherwise the game would be very, very boring because every army would be a carbon copy of the same thing.
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Old 19 Oct 2007, 21:47   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Skimmers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
You also note that skimmers in general have less firepower and less armor than their ground based equivalents. Yes a Tau Hammerhead or Eldar Falcon will stand up to more lascannon shots, but throw a bunch of krak missiles, plasma shots or missile pods at it and it falls easier than a Land Raider which shrugs off all of those with impunity.

Balance is the key, everything has strengths and weaknesses and works in different ways, otherwise the game would be very, very boring because every army would be a carbon copy of the same thing.




Wow. Im surprised you haven't locked this thread 'til Kingdom come...



Skimmers aren't that overpowered as they seem, They don't have as much armament as other Treaded tanks, AND there are only a few armies like Eldar and Tau that can have them, so it balances out when only those armies can use them.
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Old 19 Oct 2007, 22:00   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmers

Another thing I have noticed is how useful tracked vehicles are in protecting infantry. One of the new tactics I am exploring with my Dark Angels is using our insanely cheap Rhinos as a way of making sure my bikes can get into combat without getting shot up. Tau use skimmers to protect units from close-combat, but they don't really help against Heavy Bolters and the like.

I do think Eldar skimmers are a little too durable in 4th Edition. Like Dark Eldar, they should really be using speed for protection rather than vehicle upgrades. Otherwise, it sort of starts to contradict how fragile they are supposed to be.
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Old 20 Oct 2007, 00:22   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmers

I think Khanaris has got it spot on here. I don't really mind fighting tau skimmers or wave serpeants because I can bombard them with a ton of weaker weapons and still have a pretty good chance of putting it down, but the Falcon is a whole other story. Holofields are just too powerful I think it would really be more balanced if they made it like a venerable dreadnaught where you can only re-roll once per-turn and then reduce the cost of them. I don't really like the concept of the spirit stone upgrade either, entirely removing skimmer's weakness is a bit much.
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Old 20 Oct 2007, 01:01   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmers

IMO, the problem involves Falcons with holofields and spiritstones...but that's another topic that's been beaten to death.

Anyway, I think I should point out something I saw in the Apocalypse rulebook: I won't quote it, but page 94, Shooting at Flyers, paragraph four, makes mention of flyers behaving like fast moving skimmers, but it also cites the rule specifically, which is different than in the core rules. Basically, the conditions for gaining immunity from penetrating hits appears to no longer be moving over just 6" from the point the skimmer started at. At least that's how it is written in that instance.

I might be going out on a limb, but I have a feeling that those rumors of a 4.5 edition may not be so exaggerated after all.
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Old 20 Oct 2007, 10:20   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Skimmers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectMayhem
IMO, the problem involves Falcons with holofields and spiritstones...but that's another topic that's been beaten to death.

Anyway, I think I should point out something I saw in the Apocalypse rulebook: I won't quote it, but page 94, Shooting at Flyers, paragraph four, makes mention of flyers behaving like fast moving skimmers, but it also cites the rule specifically, which is different than in the core rules. Basically, the conditions for gaining immunity from penetrating hits appears to no longer be moving over just 6" from the point the skimmer started at. At least that's how it is written in that instance.

I might be going out on a limb, but I have a feeling that those rumors of a 4.5 edition may not be so exaggerated after all.
This makes perfect sense without bringing in a 5th Edition - a Skimmer can stand still. A Flyer CAN`T (unless he has the VTOL-rule) - should a flyer ever decide to stop his forward thrust, he`d crash. Therefore it is only prudent to treat a flyer as a fast moving vehicle, no matter how far it actually moved - even IF he ends his movement at the exact location he was when he started, most likely, he made some wild maneouvers to get into this place again (think looping, etc.). A Skimmer just stands still - and is therefore a sitting duck.

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Old 20 Oct 2007, 11:50   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Skimmers

As a Harlequin player, I love my Skimmers.

As a Dark Eldar player, I love my Skimmers.

As an Eldar / Corsair player, I love my Vypers.

As a Marine player, I love my Land Speeders.


As everything else, I despise Skimmers.


My opinion on Skimmers is very simple; anything with AV 12 or more is illegal. I don't use Falcons, Hammerheads, Monoliths or any heavy skimmer (correction; I don't use Tau skimmers with Target Lock! I'm fine with Tau Tanks, providing they can't fight as a Fast vehicle!).

Tau Skimmers are balanced before you start giving them upgrades. Most Skimmers are balanced providing they have weak armour.

Falcons, and kitted-out Tau vehicles (and the Monolith) are much harder to justify.
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Old 20 Oct 2007, 12:13   #10 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Skimmers

Yes but for the amount of firepower a falcon throws out it's also very very expensive.


I mean, a fully kitted out falcon is nearing 200 points, and in no way does it remotely match a landraider.

Also, spirit stones aren't as good as everybody seems to think they are. Because it almost ensures that the vehicle just can't shoot. So yes, a nearing 200 point extremely durable mobile paperweight, useful indeed.


I can say that in the few games I played where the enemy has just ignored my falcon straight up or settled for stunning it every turn, I've had an extremely hard fight. It's only when they just decide to throw every lascannon they have at the falcon and won't rest until it's dead that it did seem that the falcon was too overpowered.


But I agree that something should be done about the holofield/spirit stones combo, because for a primary battle tank the falcon is currently way too expensive. I'd rather see more falcons than just a pair of indestructable falcons.


At the moment they're infinitely more effective than Leman Russ overall, I want them to be taken down to the same level. Still better than Predators and what not but...
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