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what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 11:00   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

i got to thinking when i saw threads such as wraithguard being overpowered, alpha leigon losing infiltrate so no-one wants to use them, iron warriors palyers muttering amoungst themselves..............

what makes an army "beardy" ???

the most common answer i get is "something like the Siren Bomb where the enemy has every advantage over you and you cant do anything about it"

personally, i think this is rubbish. there are plenty of ways to defeat a daemonette bombing prince (irrelevant now i know but the point still stands).

as far as i can see, every (yes every!!!) codex is balanced.

i personally have serious problems taking on tyranids and the new chaos. not because i am a bad player, but because my style of play doesnt lend itself to defeating them (and my tank destroying lascannons simply annoy carnifexes )


i guess the reason i am starting this thread is i want a general consensus on what EXACTLY makes an army beardy.

personally i dont think such an army exists, it is just that certain armies DO have advantages over others (at least in the mannor i use them)


discuss (and i will personally destroy anyone who turns this thread into a slug-fest )
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 11:13   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

Okay, how do you effectively defeat a siren bomb army?


I think usually we call an army cheesy when it plays upon a minor rule and takes it to great proportions, such that GW could not have possibly meant to have a game that way.


So I don't call 9 broadside, all infiltrating, drop pod or nidzilla armies cheesy. The ones I call cheesy right now are the obsolete siren bomb and the controversial but not even very effective rubber banding hawk army. ie. they take a small technicality in the rules and replicates it to a playstyle GW did not foresee and would not have wanted.
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 12:24   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

defeating siren bomb........

Option 1 - the easy options:

play as the grey knights or the sisters of battle (they ignore siren completely)

option 2 - the normal options:

deploy in cover - those daemonettes will still drop your I down but you will still fight quicker than them (and with a 5+ save drop quite a few)

to any imperial army - spend 32+pts on an allied =][= with 2 mystics and stand near a devi squad or leman russ (buy codex daemonhunters to figure that one out). this also works against deep striking terminators and drop pods so is very much a viable tactic.

eldar - use skimmers (6's followed by 6's followed by 4's is not good odds to damage a falcon).

armies in general - buy an auspex (or equiv). this will help deal with infiltrating marines.


option 3 - the hard ways:

tyranids/guard - you may not be able to charge or shoot the siren lord, but you can prevent him from moving or summoning anything by mobbing him with gaunts/conscripts.

marines - whirlwind mines dont have to be placed over a model - right in front of the prince sounds good (summon your daemons onto THAT )



i am getting bored of ways to beat it now, all you need is tactics (or an =][= army who ignore the power all together). dont forget that the siren prince cannot ever join a unit (or he loses the siren bonus) and will have next to no wargear because to "guarantee" siren you need at least 6 minor powers - 60pts of your 150 allowance used up (assuming a lord, 60% of your points used up for a lieutenant i believe)

i personally have never lost to a siren prince, this is why i find it strange that people call the tactic cheezy. i started this thread so people could discuss why THEY think it is cheezy.

though it has to be said i prefer the I6 lash of submission prince to the I5/6 siren one - they are easier to take down :P
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 12:54   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

One of two things...

1) The army is genuinely broken and being exploited, played in a way unintended by GW, like crazed said. Iron Warriors muttering amongst themselves sounds like bitterness because they can't tear through every single opponent with 9 obliterators anymore.

2) Someone got beaten badly and decided to accuse the army of being "cheap", or requiring "no skill" to play with.
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 13:16   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidstyler
One of two things...

1) The army is genuinely broken and being exploited, played in a way unintended by GW, like crazed said. Iron Warriors muttering amongst themselves sounds like bitterness because they can't tear through every single opponent with 9 obliterators anymore.
this i can almost aggree with

i dont think obliterators are all that impressive (even in the old codex). yes they are mean!!! but they cost what 70+points each and have 1 wound i think (2 max). if they are relpacing tanks (as they are now), just use your anti-tank stuff on them. or just charge them with anything that has more than one power weapon.

again - i dont want to hear about lists that are hard to beat. i want to know why poeple think these lists are BEARDY or CHEEZY. i dont want to hear about lists that are

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidstyler
2) Someone got beaten badly and decided to accuse the army of being "cheap", or requiring "no skill" to play with.
this is the point i am making.

most people look at an army they just got massacred by and just assume its a beardy list (see my siren argument above)

the lists i find seriously broken i'm sure will have little or no meaning for most poeple out there so how can everyone claim that iron warriors/slannesh were any less "beardy" than another army.
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 13:43   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Magnifico
defeating siren bomb........

Option 1 - the easy options:

play as the grey knights or the sisters of battle (they ignore siren completely)

option 2 - the normal options:

deploy in cover - those daemonettes will still drop your I down but you will still fight quicker than them (and with a 5+ save drop quite a few)

to any imperial army - spend 32+pts on an allied =][= with 2 mystics and stand near a devi squad or leman russ (buy codex daemonhunters to figure that one out). this also works against deep striking terminators and drop pods so is very much a viable tactic.

eldar - use skimmers (6's followed by 6's followed by 4's is not good odds to damage a falcon).

armies in general - buy an auspex (or equiv). this will help deal with infiltrating marines.


option 3 - the hard ways:

tyranids/guard - you may not be able to charge or shoot the siren lord, but you can prevent him from moving or summoning anything by mobbing him with gaunts/conscripts.

marines - whirlwind mines dont have to be placed over a model - right in front of the prince sounds good (summon your daemons onto THAT )



i am getting bored of ways to beat it now, all you need is tactics (or an =][= army who ignore the power all together). dont forget that the siren prince cannot ever join a unit (or he loses the siren bonus) and will have next to no wargear because to "guarantee" siren you need at least 6 minor powers - 60pts of your 150 allowance used up (assuming a lord, 60% of your points used up for a lieutenant i believe)

i personally have never lost to a siren prince, this is why i find it strange that people call the tactic cheezy. i started this thread so people could discuss why THEY think it is cheezy.

though it has to be said i prefer the I6 lash of submission prince to the I5/6 siren one - they are easier to take down :P
All these tactics are ridiculously specialized. A non beardy army should be able to be combatted by a well balanced and well constructed army list. The very fact that many of your ways to beat them are race/wargear specific is already evidence that the Sirenbomb is a broken army. In a tournament or even a bring and battle game in a store (the two most common types of games played usually) if they want to go sirenbomb and you took a well rounded army, you're toast.
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 14:19   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

Well, that would beg the question of what you define "balanced army" to mean.

If you mean something like "An army which is prepared to play any army, and stand a chance to win" you're going to have a lot to prepare against. Just from my 3 Codices, I can name 6 different army types. And there are far more sub-genres within. With 7 Codices, that's going to be a lot to try to counter. You could change the definition, so you can counter most listsn but then there are going to be holes. Armies against which you will be destroyed. Or you could have an army which is prepared for your metagame. This army would also have holes, but these holes will probably not be fought. IMO, the latter is what people go for, and Chaos armies aren't as often played as other armies, so their counters are taken out, and used for another army. Especially so for a very specialized army.

Now for my definition:
Ideal: An army which consistently can win the game on the first turn, and absolutely nothing you do can change the out come. Not changing your list, playing different, nothing. And the army is completely legal.
Real: Any army which beats someone who thinks they are the best at 40k, and wants an excuse to make them feel better.
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 14:32   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
All these tactics are ridiculously specialized. A non beardy army should be able to be combatted by a well balanced and well constructed army list. The very fact that many of your ways to beat them are race/wargear specific is already evidence that the Sirenbomb is a broken army. In a tournament or even a bring and battle game in a store (the two most common types of games played usually) if they want to go sirenbomb and you took a well rounded army, you're toast.
my blood angels army:

lemartes
9 death company (jump packs)
8 veteran assault marines
10 man tactical squad
10 man tactical squad
2 baal predators
1 predator destructor

my eldar army

farseer
autarch (with banshees)
6 howling banshees (in wave serpent)
10 dire avengers (in wave serpent)
6 pathfinders
3 fire prisms

my daemonhunters army

=][= lord (3 heavy bolter sevitors, sage, 2 mystics - stands next to devi squad)
callidus assassin
3 daemonhosts
8 stormtroopers (2 plasma guns)
8 stormtroopers (2 melta guns)
5 space marines (lascannon)
5 space marines (lascannon)
6 Space marine Bikes(2 melta guns, sgt with powerfist, attack bike with multi-melta)
5 space marines (4 plasma cannons)



the easiest victory i have ever had against a siren bomb is with my daemonhunters list . 4 plasma cannons is enough to ruin any daemons day.

with my other armies i am either faster (eldar) or have the firepower to hold them back (blood angels)

siren was an annoyance, it meant i couldnt kill your 150+pts of non scoring average in combat with no shooting capacity lord.


but please - i quote myself from my original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
and i will personally destroy anyone who turns this thread into a slug-fest
you have yet to explain WHY a siren bomb is a "cheezy" or "beardy" tactic. i have shown (or rather, i aggree, "said") that i have no problems against such a list.

if siren is the only "beardy" list going (and without any explination as to why) then i am going to GT next year for an easy win



edit - my apologies trafalgar, you posted as i was typing. i completely aggree with absolutely everything you said.

if someone can come up with an armylist that can WIN the game in turn one with no possible way of countering it - i will concede. if you can find a list that is unbeatable except by RAW butchering stretching a codex to its max then i will also concede.


plus - plesae define a "balanced army" for me, i'm sure any ork player is going to consider a traited marine army with 6 heavy bolter devi squads beardy, but what about mechanised lists against the same army
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 14:41   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

These terms are normally assigned to any unit or tactic that the assigner's army does not have a strong answer for.

There are usually strong debates between people who view some armies as "cheesy" and those who do not believe cheesy armies are possible. I don't really want to get into that. There are good arguments both ways.

The problems usually arise whenever you have wargear or special rules that effect armies differently. Psychic Powers are the best example of this. Imperial armies have many ways of shutting down Psychic Powers. Tau have none. So whenever you introduce psychic powers for an army, they are automatically much more effective against some armies than they are against others. But their cost is fixed, regardless of opponent. This is also why Chaos players could rightfully consider Daemonhunters "cheesy". Things like Sacred Incense are insanely powerful for their cost. But the low cost is averaged by the fact that it is not useful against any opponents aside from Chaos.

The problem also shows up in terms of how one army's strengths line up with another's weaknesses. With a Deathwing army, I am always going to struggle against Dark Eldar if they take enough Wyches. With a Tau army, I will have a hard time finding good answers to the Necron Phalanx or Godzilla Tyranids.

[hr]

El Magnifico, I don't think you are looking at the Siren Bomb the right way. GW recognized that it was broken, and that is why it was removed (although only time will tell if its replacement is worse). Sure, it didn't work against armies that included Psychic Hoods or other psychic blockers. But that forced every other army list onto the defensive when it came to army selection. And some armies had no options for dealing with it. Surrounding it didn't work, since it is normally faster than any horde unit and starts deploying Daemons from turn 2 onwards. Moreover, the list was not weakened all that much by the presence of Siren, and so was still playable even against armies that were not particularly vulnerable (unlike many other unbalanced lists, such as the 9-Broadside cadre).

You were playing army lists that happened to be better at dealing with it. If you want to understand why it was broken, try playing one of those that weren't against someone who still has a list. As it stands, the fact that you didn't have a problem with it is basically irrelevant.

The problem was that it eliminated a major component of the game from consideration for any army that was not tailored to beat it. That is why it was broken, and that is why it was pulled.
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Old 04 Oct 2007, 14:56   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: what makes a "beardy" or "cheezy" army???

i dont think the argument that any army that cannot be combated by a balanced list is beardy really does not work, of course there is a big difference between how to deal with a conscript swarm, smurfs, nidzillas or an armoured company!

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