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how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 06:36   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

10 man wraithguard team
space marine stat line +1 strength +2 toughness
they have weapons that automatically wound on a 2+, on a 6 they instakill. Ap 2 Against vehicles they act as haywire grenades for 35 points WTF?! Now add a warlock with conceal. Don't forget they are fearless too. So for about 37 points per model you get BETTER then a terminator in every aspect except armor save by 1?! How the hell is this balanced? Tap a warseer to cast fortune and they are literally IMPOSSIBLE to kill. I faced two squads of this set up. What was GW smoking when they made eldar? Lets make as overpowered of an army as possible.
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 06:57   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

How about the fact that they've got a 12 inch range and are almost worthless in close combat to any dedicated CC specialist?


Just check out some of Yriel's army for the survivability of wraithguards.


Don't forget that they have no powerfists, as opposed to terminators who can rip apart anything in close combat. Send a large squad of grunts and you'll tie up wraithguards indefinitely in combat. 2 Squads of the setup you discussed means around 800 points. Are you telling me that for 800 points, you couldn't field the amount of greater than 12 firepower to put this down, or a cheap large meaty squad to tie them up indefinitely in combat, or a CC specialist squad to rip them up, or the mobility to outrun their horrifying 6" movement?


If you're going to complain about overpowered units in an eldar force, complain about the correct ones at least. Falcons are overpowered arguably, the old vyper jetbikes were overpowered, as were the old starcannons. The wraithguard doesn't even come close.
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 07:08   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

Do you see my avatar? Ok then. This was in an all comers tourny, for 1500, I couldn't exactly bring the whole army ya know? No kroot today. Even if I had kroot, they still would have been shot for atleast one turn.

They still have strength 5 and toughness 6! Nothing is going to scratch that in close combat. The objective is to kill them, not tie them up. The 12" doesn't mean jack Shtlk. Most people play on a 6x4. They have an effective range of 18", put them at the edge of the deployment zone... hey look at that they are firing into yours by turn 2. Rapid fire range is 12".

Tyrant are 5/6 and cost 70pts before upgrades
friggin carnifexs are toughness 6
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 07:40   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

the strange thing is i didnt include wraithguard in my eldar because i thought they were too fragile


350pts for a full squad (plus warlock as suggsted)

my death company for my dark angels comes to 225pts for 9 with jump packs (i pay for most) and i think i know who's gonna win that combat.

a tyranid gaunt is 1/7th of their points - swarm them and watch them try to take out a full brood of 32 gaunts (never mind hormagaunts)

but you dont have to assault them!!!!

basilisk

leman russ

dark reapers

thousand sons marines

just to name a few..........


wraithgaurd are a very powerfull unit i aggree. but i have the same feeling for them as i do for terminators - there are just too many weapons that make mincemeat of them to make them viable.

try to include an assault element, or an AP3/2 shooty element (i have a fasination for plasma cannons but missile launchers work fine )
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 08:20   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

El Magnifico: Wraithguards don't even have an invulnreble save, unlike terminators.



Amaliel: Well then, what type of army did you play? I can't see anything but the most basic static crisis suit supported Tau army getting gunned down by a wraithwall army, which is extremely flawed. What other units did he have to complement the wraithwall? Technically the wraithwall is supposed to be the last part of the enemy you deal with.

And how is a 4 by 6 not enough room to maneuver? That's where all games virtually take place. Put in a few terrains and if you play a mech army that is plenty room to maneuver.
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 09:15   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

erm........... i know wraithgaurd have no inv save..... :huh:



but bear in mind if you want to take them down (400pts unit with a warlock so very likely) that they only move 6" and only have a range of 12". pack anything with a range of 24 or more and they will have a hard time getting to you. if they are in a wave serpent, focus SOME firepower at it but i'd pay more attention to falcons etc as 5 wraithgaurd are not that big a threat.


just swamp them in guard conscripts ive lost more terminators to conscripts than i have plasma weapons
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 09:27   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

Hm, I agree with nearly everyone. If you want to complain about Eldar, complain about the Falcon

If you`re playing Tau, I fail to see the problem you have with Wraithguard. Ionheads, Broadsides, Plasmarifles and even Rail Rifles make short work of them. And, yes, they have an 18" effective range. Wohoo... I`m tingling. Ever heard of Mech Tau? Everything moves 12" a turn, and can still shoot?

Actually meeting such a force is one of my wildest dreams - 800 Eldar points which can do nothing against me, since I`m waaay too fast for them to catch me - leaves the Eldar player less points to field Falcons.

Sorry, if you`re playing Tau and complain that you can`t evade Wraithguard on a 6x4 table long enough to kill them, I have serious doubts that you have picked the right army...
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 09:40   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

Well, I agree with Mongoose here as the Wraithguardss are very expensive pointwise for them to be a all-rounder unit. But still you have to admit that they are good units.

Now why I think that WraithGuards are fair game, even with Tau (not having lots of AP 3 and below weapons)?

Even if you spam the entire army with them in a 2000 pts army (footslogging and also mounted), you will have a very small number of them that will falter under heavy firepower or low AP weapons. Add that to the fact that their weapons need to be very close (12 inches to be exact) to even do some nasty damage, you will be facing a unit that needs to slug it out with the incoming firepower of the enemy forces.

Now I guess you would argue that they can be mounted inside falcons. But now here comes the next part of what I am about to say about them.

Even with a Falcon flying towards you with full payload, it will somewhat be a miracle for it to really reach your lines to do significant damage as most of the time, the Falcon will be shaken (destroying it is highly unlikely due to the holo-field/spirit stone/Vectored engines wargear) and thus will not be able to lend its firepower to the Wraithguards when they do their drive-by shooting.

Let's see the equation for them as most people will see a squad of 5 wraithguard and a spiritseer and a Falcon.

(Wraithguard+ Falcon)+ (Lots of shots and/or loads of AP 3 and below weapons) = Fire magnet + Fun way of getting VP points

Seriously the only way you can negate them from being targeted by almost every shooting element is to Mechanized your entire force. Safety in numbers so to speak.

In essence, the wraithguards are there to support the eldar war effort, not to become reckless heroes. That job is best left to the harlequins which in my opinion are total monsters, and also Banshees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmongoose2003
Amaliel: Well then, what type of army did you play? I can't see anything but the most basic static crisis suit supported Tau army getting gunned down by a wraithwall army, which is extremely flawed. What other units did he have to complement the wraithwall? Technically the wraithwall is supposed to be the last part of the enemy you deal with.
I am also curious myself.

And as my memory serve me right, the Wraithguard can never rapid fire, for their weapon is an assault 1 weapon.
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 10:12   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
10 man wraithguard team
350 points. thats... 2 hammerheads. or 5 broadsides....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
they have weapons that automatically wound on a 2+, on a 6 they instakill. Ap 2 Against vehicles they act as haywire grenades for 35 points WTF?!
12" range. it takes them 3 turns to get to shooting range of the edge of your deployment zone. bear in mind, 350pts. thats over 20% of your army in one unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
Now add a warlock with conceal. Don't forget they are fearless too. So for about 37 points per model you get BETTER then a terminator in every aspect except armor save by 1?!
no p.fist. no invul save. no assault cannons. and what good is a 5+ cover save when i keep wounding them on 3s with ap4 missile pods from 3 crisis suits? its a waste of 40points. On top of the 350 you've already spend...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
How the hell is this balanced?
it costs 400 odd points, mate. factor in dodgy range, and extreme vunerability to assault. and heavy weapons like lascannons, meltas, plasmas etc. they're easy VPs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
Tap a warseer to cast fortune and they are literally IMPOSSIBLE to kill.
thats a 500 point unit now. wow. watch me play my mech guard and throw str8 ap3 pie plate after str8 ap3 pie plate onto them...

Quote:
I faced two squads of this set up.
800 points, plus 100 for the necessary farseer. that leaves 600 points for other stuff like vehicles, assault specialists, infiltrators, and so on.

wow, that is a really crappy list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
Do you see my avatar? Ok then. This was in an all comers tourny, for 1500, I couldn't exactly bring the whole army ya know? No kroot today. Even if I had kroot, they still would have been shot for atleast one turn.
1500pts? Hmm, thats my 3 fireknife suits, 8 vespids, 3 hammerheads (or 2 hammerheads and 2 broadsides), 20 fire warriors, 36 kroot and a devilfish. point everything at that one unit and it goes away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
They still have strength 5 and toughness 6! Nothing is going to scratch that in close combat. The objective is to kill them, not tie them up.
So? our basic gun wounds them on 5s. factor in a squad of pathfinders with markerlights. Or else Vespids kill them on 5s. Sniper drones own them on 4s. and by tieing them up in cc, you stop them doing anything, like moving, shooting your hammerheads, taking objectives etc. 40k isnt won just by killing the other guy.

And then, you've got other armies that are just gonna eat them up for breakfast. I'd love to face that with my IG. my 3 leman russes are gonna have a field day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
The 12" doesn't mean jack Shtlk. Most people play on a 6x4. They have an effective range of 18", put them at the edge of the deployment zone... hey look at that they are firing into yours by turn 2. Rapid fire range is 12".
No. units will be outside 24". 3 turns. and lets face it, no tau general worth his salt lines up his troops on the edge of his deployment zone when there are things in this game that can move and assault 24" a turn.
and btw, they're assault 1. and there are just too many ways to counter 400+ points of wraithguard walking across the board to you it isnt even funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaliel
Tyrant are 5/6 and cost 70pts before upgrades
friggin carnifexs are toughness 6
So? they're MCs. you know... count as having power weapons, loads of attacks and so on and so forth. wraithguard are balanced, and on the whole, against the whole pantheon of 40k armies, they're extremely vunerable.
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Old 03 Oct 2007, 13:40   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: how the hell are wrathguard balanced?!

El Magnifico: Yeah I know you know but...it was badly addressed on my point, I was trying to reinforce what you were saying...


Crisis Vyper: Actually wraithguards aren't even as survivable as your scenario describes, because they can't be mounted on falcons at all. They can only be mounted on wave serpents who do not have access to the dreaded holofield.


Also, I don't know how static/mechanized your Tau is Amaliel, but Tau are very good at VP denial. If his primary units are Wraithguards (and they're footslogging no less) you're going to be able to get to objectives/redeploy much faster than he can.


Really, the Eldar units you should be afraid of the most these days are the Falcon and the Harlequins. (To a lesser extent, warp spiders and shining spears)
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