Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?
Reply
Old 02 Oct 2007, 07:14   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 112
Default 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

http://warseer.com/rules/warhammer_4...vanced_rules_0

So a short while back a friend of mine and I were bemoaning the 'over-simplification' we feel is occurring in 40k. While I do like a lot of it, making for a faster game and such, I'm a fan of rules that reflect the fluff more accurately and also offer more cinematic gameplay.

Anyway, my friend mentioned that he wondered why GW didn't bring out 2 rule sets, or maybe an 'advanced' rule set for players that don't mind the added complexity. Led me to thinking.

Found the rules linked above and I really like them. Especially the 'Overwatch' rule. Like the rules for saves as well, but I'm worried that it will interrupt the flow of the game.

So just wondering, has anyone used the advanced rules? What did you think? What do you think of the 'Veteran Ruleset' idea for 40k?
__________________
Plastic Rat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 11:56   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 142
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

Think of this in business terms for GW. You have a set of rules that need to playtested very thoroughly, written, laid out, illustrated and then heavily supported because the more complex rules become the more grey areas appear.

And then only 25-50% of your customers buy it. And many of them don't understand it and start panning WH40K in general, while others say it doesn't go far enough. And it won't sell any more miniatures which is what GW is all about.

That's why community efforts are so great.

__________________
No Gods! No Tyrants!
pond823 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 12:25   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fifth circle of hell
Posts: 3,150
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

I cant stand those rules. they're unbalanced, and broken in the extreme, and just favour mass marine armies with lots of heavy weapons sitting in cover.

Armour Mods too are a very bad idea. and he's forgotten that regular pulse rifles force a -2 mod on armour saves. marines with 5+ armour saves?

overwatch was removed for a reason. when its used, games fall into an "im not gonna move" mode, and it hurts mobile armies like tau and eldar.

close combat is so much bulkier and more cumbersome in this edition, especially with parrying. and again, armour mods. and seriously, fire warriors parrying marines? pfft. yeah right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Rat

So a short while back a friend of mine and I were bemoaning the 'over-simplification' we feel is occurring in 40k.
then play a different game. try warmachine or Starship Troopers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Rat
I'm a fan of rules that reflect the fluff more accurately and also offer more cinematic gameplay.
can't be done. all armies have to be toned down for gameplay reasons. Or would you rather "fluffy" iron warriors with 9 oblits, basilisks, and 3 other heavies? game =/= background.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Rat
Anyway, my friend mentioned that he wondered why GW didn't bring out 2 rule sets, or maybe an 'advanced' rule set for players that don't mind the added complexity. Led me to thinking.
they do. cityfight, and apocalypse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Rat
Found the rules linked above and I really like them. Especially the 'Overwatch' rule. Like the rules for saves as well, but I'm worried that it will interrupt the flow of the game.
fair enough. Bear in mind though, I've played enough wargames to see they're horrid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Rat
So just wondering, has anyone used the advanced rules? What did you think? What do you think of the 'Veteran Ruleset' idea for 40k?
(1) read through them. applied them to games.
(2) horrid.
(3) very bad. soccer is soccer. you cant really have a more advanced version of the game with 15 players and extra rules. its not soccer. same with 40k.

it boils down to this. 40k is a fast pased streamlined skirmish game. Trying to make a wargame real is a very tricky business. leave the high level of detail to RPGs. And if you are not fond of how 40k is, try something new. you might be surprised at what you find out there.
__________________
greatest band in the universe: www.machinaesupremacy.com

"What warriors of men can stand beside the Space Wolves! The Sons of Fenris they are, hardened in the forge of their harsh world, eager for battle and honour. They are the grey warriors, ashen like the wolf, whose greatest joy is to hear the clamour of steel amidst the din of war. None can step before them, they are the first, proud in their strength and jealous of their renown. Through the storms of the warp they come, upon the very tides of terror, but of such dangers they are uncaring. They are the Space Wolves, the Undefeated, the bane of the Emperor's foes."
Deadnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 12:33   #4 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Behind you
Posts: 19,399
Send a message via MSN to ForbiddenKnowledge
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

Wow.... that guy loves marines, doesn't he? They can be a pain now, but in that ruleset, all you'd need is tac squads in cover with heavies, as Deadnight said. Pointless gaming.

Pulse rifles would only give a -1 modifier, but still.

Some of them are pretty good starting ideas, but they don't look like they have been playtested at all!
__________________
[quote]Thou shalt not crave thy neighbour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim.
Rafe is damn sexy once he gets into his night attire.
ForbiddenKnowledge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 13:38   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 165
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadnight
Trying to make a wargame real is a very tricky business.
Very true! ... and my favourite game is one of, if not the most successful with that intention. Fast paced and low on detail, which is part of what makes it realistic!

WHFB and WH40k are slow and somewhat overly detailed by comparison...

Cheers
Olle
__________________
Olle P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 13:50   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 6,336
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

I think I'll try some of them. What the heck, what could it hurt?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Komrad
By the Holy Beard of the Prophet!
Tau Fanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 14:27   #7 (permalink)
Kai
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Manchester - UK
Posts: 666
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

Just buy a copy of 2nd Ed 40k, it has all the things you've mentioned (before anyone asks I havnt read the rules posted, nor do I intend to). Personally I think the changes made between 2nd and 4th have done nothing but benefit the game (even if the 'hazing' period of 3rd was a clunky start). Armour modification, going by 2nd ed, meant that pretty much nothing bar power armour got a save against anything, and even then it was usually 5+ at best. Overwatch was a terrible rule (apart from in 1st ed space hulk, but thats a very different game) the end result of which was both armies generally clinging behind cover like old women and refusing to move until someone got bored around turn 3, or until the psycic phase (then done as a card game) destroyed enough that you had to move.

Also, 2nd ed had pop up attacks for all skimmers (pretty much what the Tau have as JSJ now). Possibly the most unbalancing thing ever.

I've mentioned this in a similar post a few weeks ago, but 40k does already technically have advanced and simple rules variants in the form of the alpha, gamma and omega game variants found in the battles section of the main rulebook which vary the amount of special rules that can be used by players during the game. This is only going to increase with apocalypse, and has already increased through the IA books and, as someone else pointed out, cityfight. You then also have the super simple games like combat patrol, killteam and 40k in 40 minutes.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by †Methelas†
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai
Quote:
Originally Posted by †Methelas†
The Titan is not a human, therefore has no genitals!
My subtle diagram disagrees with you.
your "subtle" diagram contains Optimus Prime and Proffessor Farnsworth, it's heresy in it's own right!
Any similarities between your reality and mine are purely coincidental...
Kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 17:09   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Brampton Ont. Canada
Posts: 6,441
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

Just a lil bit of something I came up with for a 40k advance type ruleset. Basically combining the Starship Troopers "actions" with a LOTR style priority system. Basically it goes like this.

-Players roll off to determine priority (like LOTR)

-Each unit gets 2 "actions" per turn. This could be moving, shooting, charging or just doing nothing at all.

-In order of priority players play 1-2 actions on any of their units (1-2 in total, not per unit). They don't have to play them on the same unit, but must use at least 1 action. The 1+ limit ensures that an army cannot expect to simply hide out and wait for the opponent to come around the corner then fire at full effect. It's still possible, but it won't be as effective

-Players continue alternating until all units have performed their 2 actions
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch: the noob
Is it just me, or does Fish Ead really love to use a Dreadsock?...
I'd hate to get on his bad side... >
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiwaz
Fishy has just proved to me that Canadians CAN be scary...
Fish Ead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02 Oct 2007, 19:01   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 335
Default Re: 40k Advanced Rules - Who uses them?

Maybe its becuase I started playing 40 in late 1st and early 2nd ed. but I can't stand it when people complain about overwatch rules.

2nd ed was about having fun with your friends as you play a long, but interesting anything could happen game. The later ed of 40k streamline the game "cleaned up" some broken rules but took a lot of fun elements with it.

Lets start with overwatch...its a misnomer that overwatch forced I'm not gonna move type play..actually units in overwatch had to shoot the first thing that moved with in their LOS. You could totally mess up a guys over watch by force him to shooting at something he didn't want to. It brought a deminsion of strategy never seen again.

Modifers on armor, this one I have to admit made marines less durable if you only take into account the weaponvs armor, however hitting was another thing. Modifers for shooting at long range, turned the guardsman into an ork baliistically. Marines were fitted with targters to give them +1 bs, and were the only ones who could rapid fire (this was at 24" BTW) so marines could out shoot most armies.

The pop up attack was not as broken as it seems becuase vehicles were easier to destroy once hit.

Sure it was time consuming, sure there were rule contradictions, sure h2h was a monster to figure out. But the games wernt about speed, it was about fun. If you look at 2nd ed there was allot of things that made more sense than they do now.

Like take psychology, for one. To me if you wanted say a group of conscripts to tie up say a bloodthirster they had to make ld test...becuase deamons caused terror and fear. Nowadays every one is ok with tossing their lives away for the emperor or the greater good or what ever...without thinking twice.

Also pyskers were as powerful as they are in the fluff. Mastering the pyschic phase sometimes meant the diffrence between a win and a loss.

Bikes were vehicles ever try fighting someone whist riding a motorcycle...pretty hard right...2nd had rules for hit and run attacks that make more sense than this ooh lets roll full speed stop and do h2h system that we have now.

You could throw krack greandes and frag grenades, that was awesome.

A vehicle that blew up next to another vehicle had a good chance of destroying it. With our current system if my demoshing bows up right next to my opened topped sentinal nothing happens...

You could smash a tank into another tank...if all your weapon systems had been blown up...again that is just awesome.

Just a few example of how you could have fun in 2nd ed. Wasn't ment for tournaments or one hour games but it wanst broken either.
__________________
Like the sig? Check out my artwork

[img width=650 height=169]http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1077/ordounlimitedsigcopybcopylc7.jpg[/img]
arcadiabulldog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advanced Painting Technique Contest [RULES] AuinMyrrath Tau Online Past Contests 7 19 Nov 2008 04:56
Advanced Campaign Rules Tassadar General 40K 11 09 Jun 2007 16:57
The Mothman's Advanced rules The Mothman House Rules 9 16 Aug 2006 21:36
Who is more technologically advanced? Siegfried 40K Universe 120 21 Jun 2006 19:31
Advanced 40k Rules Kingnova3000 House Rules 6 01 Dec 2005 05:09