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Apocalypse and the spirit of the game
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Old 27 Sep 2007, 16:42   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Did any of you read the Jervis Johnson editorial in the new WD 333? You know the one where he talks about people working together to allow the game to reach it's full potential. He goes on and on about how the game is supposed to be fun, where winning isn't everything, where the spirit of the game, sportsmanship, and a social contract are all required (expected?) in a game of Warhammer 40k.

He even goes so far as to say that, "It's how we play our games", referring to how the Games Workshop team plays their games (which goes back to the other thread about battle reports. Some of these guys just play the game to have fun!).

Unfortunately thats not how the game has developed. Points, min/maxing, super-combos, cheese, and powergaming, coupled with a "tournament" circuit where only the strong survive has pushed the hobby away from it's roots (IMHO).

Now I'm not trying to put that style of play down, instead it just seems weird that Jervis would talk so much about the spirit of the game, while his company pushes so hard for the tournament-style min/max game that seems to appeal to so many people.

So, do you think the spirit of the game will be revised by Apocalypse? How do you play 40k? Are you a tournament guy, a campaigner, a collector, or do you play many different ways?

I'm trying to get my 1000 points of Tau ready for next springs local game convention. I've never played in a tournament, and I want to try it out. Other than that, I'm much more into the casual game, campaign, and "fluff" based army.
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Old 27 Sep 2007, 17:07   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

i don't really understand the question, if your asking if you think the spirit of the game will be improved using the new apocolypse rules, i'de say yes, its alot more relaxed without worrying about formations or wondering if i can have some model with some model.
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Old 27 Sep 2007, 17:15   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

To paraphrase some one sig I see on these forums, GW is a company they want to make money. So the short answer is they cater to both hobbiest and competative gamers.

40 k is not just about RTT's or GT's, most of the time players are playing "friendly" games, where the out come does not equate to a trophy or store credit of some kind. I think rtt's and gt's are diffrent becuase everyone there knows this is an event and winning equals store cred or free stuff. So they menatlity changes. The rules accomidate both, friendly and competative games. Becuase GW doest care why you play just that you play. Even inm those tourney there are sportsmanship awards and best painted. In some cases I've seen best theme go out as an award. So the answer is the spirit of the game is for one to play the game. For what reason is up to you.

I play for fun, I figure you don't get money for beating someone, this aint poker. Sure being victorius is fun, but in all honesty, dwood were playing with toys pretending to kill each other...its a game.
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Old 27 Sep 2007, 18:38   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

I doubt Apocalypse will make that big an impact on the general gaming community, as it's really directed for the veterans who have the points to play those types of games.
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Old 27 Sep 2007, 20:39   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Quote:
Unfortunately thats not how the game has developed. Points, min/maxing, super-combos, cheese, and powergaming, coupled with a "tournament" circuit where only the strong survive has pushed the hobby away from it's roots (IMHO)
.

Just a note about the tournaments, local ones solve the problems.

One that two friends of mine whent to, the player was also judged Army paintjob, sportsmanship, ect

The one friend lost everygame, but made up so many points elsewhere, he got second place! He's easygoing, and accualy won best painted army.

The friend who won almost every game got near bottom on the pile. He's a bastard who made a cheese list and argued the rules with EVERYONE.


Things like that is why I NEVER play in GW tournies, I perfer local compititions, and local stores.

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Old 28 Sep 2007, 00:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droids_Rule
I doubt Apocalypse will make that big an impact on the general gaming community, as it's really directed for the veterans who have the points to play those types of games.
Yeah, and with their own tables. I'm not taking hundreds of models to my local shop. When I go out and play with the general public there will be no apocalypse.

However, in the comfort of my own home....bwahahaaa Apocamania.

What Jervis said in that write-up really spoke to me. I don't look for overly-competitive games. Mostly I want some fun with some really nice minis. I think they wrote Apocalypse for me. Me and my close friends who are all out for fun times with great minis.

I vote apocalypse as a good thing, but certainly not the only thing from here on in.
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Old 28 Sep 2007, 03:31   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Quote:
Originally Posted by boarchild
Unfortunately thats not how the game has developed. Points, min/maxing, super-combos, cheese, and powergaming, coupled with a "tournament" circuit where only the strong survive has pushed the hobby away from it's roots (IMHO).
I'd just like to point out that GW does seem to be addressing the problems with min\maxing. If you look at the Dark Angels codex you can see this quite plainly. GW also seems to be using a similar approach with the new Ork codex (with the rumored 1 in 10 limit on heavy weapons).

As for Apocalypse really changing anything in the community as a whole? I doubt it. It may breath in some campy comic violence (the whole focus of just blowing stuff up), but not many players - at the point- can afford to play. It'll mostly be veteran players, as someone else pointed out. I, for one, still have a long way to go to get my Waaagh ready for Apocalypse.

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Old 28 Sep 2007, 03:37   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Yeah, I actually moved over to 40k from another game for precisely this reason. Apocalypse and Jervis words about the 'spirit' of the game couldn't have come at a better time for me.

I was on the verge of just dumping the whole mini gaming genre due to being so sick of the overly competitive, rules-lawyering garbage that seems to come from the competitive circuit attitude that seems to permeate said other game. I want fluff. I want rules that do cool things to represent that fluff and make sense in context.

I want to play with people that understand that beating somebody at a tabletop wargame is in no way indicative of your skill as a military commander or tactician.

You'll likely never see me at a competitive event.

But you'll likely see me every weekend and some evenings down at my local gaming store painting, playing fun games based on campaigns and stories we've come up with. I'll be there buying models to use because they look cool, not necessarily because of their new AP3 bolters.

I'll be the dude in the corner yelling 'TRUST IN YOUR WARGEAR!' with a big grin as I roll my dice with my eyes closed, periodically stopping to point and snigger at the kiddies putting down their 'Lash of Submission' armies on the table.
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Old 28 Sep 2007, 04:11   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcadiabulldog
To paraphrase some one sig I see on these forums, GW is a company they want to make money. So the short answer is they cater to both hobbiest and competative gamers.
Yes, and as a company, it's taking another direction with this "Sets" and making it more accesible to the masses (yeah right). (seriously).

Quote:
I play for fun, I figure you don't get money for beating someone, this aint poker. Sure being victorius is fun, but in all honesty, dwood were playing with toys pretending to kill each other...its a game.
However, anyone that has built a force of 4000 points himself has the right to be called "A fully fledged hobbyst" and must love his army, for the time and effort put in such a force is something admirable, and while I know you can "team up" 2 detachments, the sheer effort to make one single "worthwhile" themed table, is well.... something admirable from the gaming community aswell.

And that's what Jervis was talking about, the Community, Most non GW establishments don't have tables bigger than 6*4, apocalypse goes as far as 8*8 or something like that, So the community must really get together and plan with anticipation, make communal & equal efforts over time

And that's what you should do, yes, Im talking about you. OK maybe not right now, but once you are with your gaming friends, start talking about the project, do some sketches, research for proper space & location, start working together, it might sound weird, but remember that Orks are comming in a while, you should get a proper table by then with some TEAM work.

What? do you thing that your local "gerrylum" & "Garret" should be doing the whole work?

I think not, make a communist effort, and you'll get the Spirit of the Game Jervis was talking about

Remember VF-7's 10 steps for Apocalypse community gaming:

1.- Gather together, Round up your 40k fellas, talk about your desire to star Apoc, tell them also about what the whole community should do.

2.- Plan the table, do some votings to see what kind of terrain should the community build, or if your armies allready have.

3.- Complete the armies, Some players might be just starting, that's perfectly reasonable, even if you aint an experienced hobbyst you can aid them at the task of completing their armies, or at least, have them painted with base colours & little highlights.

4.- Developmentm Do some sketches, plan the general layout of the table. this should be done after step 3, or while step 3 is beign completed, what's a scenery worth with no models to play them with?, try also to do a modular table, one that can be broken down in at least two 4*4 tables for normal 40k games.

5.- Table location. This is an important one, who's gonna host the table? how well equipped is the place (bathrooms AC Etc)

6.- Equal Task Distribution, As stated early it doesn't matters if you ain't an experienced builder, or painter, the more "menial tasks" might distract the proper painters, so you should help them glue & basecoat the terrain or another guy's army, you'll get a whole load of exp with it.

7.- Equal expense distribution, if you are going for GW's Imperial city, be asured that the community should pay equally for it, and if not, what about the community buying a compressor for an airbrush (thus, faster basecoating and some nice finishes)

8.- "Arround the clock work", now that tasks have been equally distributed you can start planning all of your schedules together for some efficiency, if you go out of class at 4pm you can link with the guy that goes to work at 6pm for a while, and thus, take a bit of time to catch up and do teamwork.

9.- Advise of your progress regulary, with your work done, you can tell your friends that's ready so that the next person in the line can take it from there, if you just putted the prime colour for the building, your friend can come and pick it up for the highlights

10.- Campaign planning, once most task are completed, you can star planning the story behind your campaing, why where the armies playing got involved etc, as a nice thing to do, try to draw some banners to commemorate the troops fighting in this war XD.

And if you don't like the general sound of this just think What would Jervies do?.... Well, that's what Jervis do ;D.
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Old 28 Sep 2007, 15:05   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Apocalypse and the spirit of the game

Call me cynical, but I think the basic purpose of Apocalypse is to move more product, not encourage a kinder gentler form of game play. In the current environment, people tend to collect an army with an eye to a given range of points within FoC constraints. Once they get their army, they may tinker by adding and subtracting models here and there, but always with the army list and points in mind. The standard recommendation from this forum and others is to build the list and then buy models for that list.

One hesitates to collect too much, because the opportunity to use it all is very limited. Apocalypse, or more aptly Free for All, removes the limitations allowing and encouraging the acquisition of more and more models because now you can actually use them all.

I am not sure whether Jervis actually believes his bit about the style of play or if it's just spin. But I do think that GW's move makes good business sense.

If
  • sales are flat
  • the growth in players is slow or flat
  • the basic game tends to discourage buying extraneous models

then the best way to drive up sales is to encourage the existing player base to buy more models.

Apocalypse does that very nicely.


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