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FOC slot transport question
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 20:50   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default FOC slot transport question

Quick question about transports across ALL armies in Warhammer 40,000 to help design a rules subset for the Dark Millennium List Builder.

I don't have all the codices so I can only see the army composition options for the Tau and Orks right now and need to know if other armies are similar in regard to transports. Here's the question: is the only unit in the entirety of WH40K that can be added to an army and NOT consume a Force Organization Chart slot a dedicated transport purchased as an upgrade or are there others?

Example: Fire Warriors can buy a Devilfish. The Devilfish doesn't consume another Troops slot but is a unit in the army (a unit dependent on the Fire Warrior unit, but a separate unit nonetheless). In the entirety of the Tau codex there's nothing else like this, every other unit consumes another slot or it doesn't (Sniper Teams don't count in this regard, I've got that covered with the "size" of the unit reflecting "how many" sniper teams there are). Same thing in the Ork codex, the only unit I'm aware of that can be purchased and NOT consume another FOC slot is a dedicated transport (and I don't remember if even THAT is in there...if not then I don't know of anything in the Ork army that would pose this problem).


So, is it just transports? If not, could you give me an example perhaps without explicit rules so I can better refine the parsing routine for libraries? Thanks for the help, looking forward to a response soon.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 21:06   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Yes, there are other units that don't take a slot apart from Transports.

Space Marine Command Squad (retinue for hero)

Warlocks (make take 3-10 per Farseer)

Those are just off the top of my head and for armies for which I own the Codex.

I've also heard the new chaos Spawn don't take a slot, though I'm not sure about that.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 21:13   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Regular Priests, Commisars, and Psykers for the IG don't take any FOC slots. And I say regular because there can be Independent Commisars for IG.
All retinues don't count and in the witch hunters a Cannoness can take a squad of Celestials as a retinue. And Celestials are a normal Elite squad.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 21:41   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

in the new chaos codex, summoned daemons (greater or lesser) don't take up a FOC slot, and neither do chaos spawn.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 21:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Dark Angels/Blood Angels Techmarines - you can take one for each Elite (Dreadnaught) or Heavy Support vehicle in your list. They deploy as Elites but don't take up FoC slots.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 21:55   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Hmm, interesting. If you all don't mind I'd appreciate just a little bit more elaboration on it (already I can tell I'm probably going to have to add to the EquipmentList object but it's sounding like just one case...an important one, a complicated one, but just one).

-Are these extra units (transports, retinues, daemons, etc) "purchased" like equipment upgrades to a Unit in the army or are they completely and totally separate (like buying Fire Warriors, only they don't fill up a slot)?

Example: If I want the Devilfish I have to purchase it as a piece of equipment for a Fire Warrior squad. To my understanding if you buy a retinue (I'm going to assume this is a totally separate unit and not a part of the commander that bought it) you have to purchase it as a piece of equipment for a Commander.

-Assuming the above is "they're purchased like equipment" can any of them purchase upgrades that the parent could ALSO choose from?

Example: I know this specific one doesn't happen but just roll with me for the sake of the insane possibility. You have some unit in a Chaos army that "buys" a unit of Daemons. Assume the unit that bought the daemons can equip frag grenades if they wish. Can the daemons in turn ALSO buy frag grenades? Or are ALL of these examples of extra units able to have SEPARATE equipment upgrades (Fire Warriors cannot purchase Vehicle Armory stuff, the Devilfish cannot purchase Infantry Armory stuff for example).

Sorry if this is sounding a bit convoluted but it's part of a partial redesign. Here's how it's working at the moment (and already tested as I've posted about): players buy Units, Units fill up FOC slots in the Army, Units can purchase Equipment, Equipment is not Units, Equipment does not fill up FOC slots. Now I'm understanding that it's more: players buy Units, Units fill up FOC slots in the Army, Units can purchase Equipment, Equipment may or may not be another Unit, this extra possible Unit does NOT fill up FOC slots but DOES contribute to Army cost.

If anyone wants to examine how it's working in depth I've got the link to the source hosting page in the Programming/Computers section, it's in the CVS and written in Ruby (and protected by GPL).
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 22:11   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Your overdoing it. Rentinues are upgrades for commanders. It's like saying, "Hey instead of one bada** guy I can have five!" It just make the commander a unit instead of one model, and retinues can't break away.

Units like the priests, commisars, and psykers are all models that are bought for the command group then shifted around into different groups. In the Witch Hunters Codex the Preist is an HQ choice that doesn't take up an HQ FOC slot but must be attached to a unit and can't just gun it alone.

With deamons, the parent unit buys a demonic sign and then buys deamons to summon to the feild. These deamons can't just be brought for a free FOC slot but must accompany their parent unit until they appear. And the deamons can't have any of the options that their parent unit has so no frag/krack/melta grenades for deamons. (But I not entirely sure as I play Tau, IG, and Witch Hunters)

So yes retinues, deamons, and transports are all "equipment" for your purposes.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 22:16   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

In dark eldar you can buy a retinue for a lord and that will not take up a FoC slot. And you can also take a warp beast pack (If you have a wyche squad) which will not take up a FoC slot and it counts and acts as a separate unit.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 22:35   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis 541
Your overdoing it. Rentinues are upgrades for commanders. It's like saying, "Hey instead of one bada** guy I can have five!" It just make the commander a unit instead of one model, and retinues can't break away.

Units like the priests, commisars, and psykers are all models that are bought for the command group then shifted around into different groups. In the Witch Hunters Codex the Preist is an HQ choice that doesn't take up an HQ FOC slot but must be attached to a unit and can't just gun it alone.

With deamons, the parent unit buys a demonic sign and then buys deamons to summon to the feild. These deamons can't just be brought for a free FOC slot but must accompany their parent unit until they appear. And the deamons can't have any of the options that their parent unit has so no frag/krack/melta grenades for deamons. (But I not entirely sure as I play Tau, IG, and Witch Hunters)

So yes retinues, deamons, and transports are all "equipment" for your purposes.
Not quite, I don't know how the daemons are worked out and your correct with transports. And you would be correct about the retinues with the exception of the blood angels and dark angels. Basically they are a unit that you can purchase that doesn't take up a HQ slot, is unlocked when you buy a character but isn't considered a unit with the character unless you join him to them.

Also the techmarine entry for the dark angels and blood angels also works similar to this principal. He doesn't take up a elite choice and you have to take at least one non transport from either heavies or elites, but he doesn't have to join whatever you used to purchase him, and he can infact be a unit of his own.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 23:39   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: FOC slot transport question

Trying not to overdo it, but believe me when I say it has to be very, very specific with the kind of libraries I'm trying to build. I'm following the philosophy of, "make the code more complex and the libraries simpler," since users will have to modify the library files to suit their codices and I want as little confusion as possible. Unfortunately for me that means I get to beat my head on the design block trying to figure out how to make a simple library file account for inconsistencies between armies.


Alright, so list building-wise they're still equipment to be purchased by a Unit that DOES occupy a FOC slot. This makes things a little easier, thank you all.


For the curious the big "problem" at the moment is what happens when that Equipment can in turn purchase equipment? Such as the Devilfish can buy upgrades, isn't a Unit, doesn't fill a FOC slot, but IS purchased by another Unit.


I'd be happy to discuss it more in depth but that's for another thread. Thank you all very, very much for your input on how these extra "units" are factored into building a list, it's much appreciated. Hopefully the backend's going to be finished by the end of the month and I can get working on a GUI in Qt 4. If any moderators wish to close the thread I'd appreciate it as it's served its purpose.
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