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All comers check List.
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 00:41   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default All comers check List.

Heya everyone! I finally gathered my mind (hopefully)... Sooo I decided to post a small "article". Here it is. What is it about? Well, I know quite a few who likes "all comer armies". In other words, they can respond to any situation. However, many people are convinced of existing of "cheese", powergaming and only few possible templates for armies that can work at all comers... I think that it is not true. Also remember, this is in no way a guide! These are my opinions. Now, that being said read the following disclaimer.

***These are MINE opinions and NOT a guide. If you disagree in anyway, feel free to do so. That is MY opinion. It is based on my extremely limited experience. I wrote this to my best abilities. This is not a "magic card" of any kinds. If this list "checked" in on every category it will NOT provide you with 100% victory. You still need a brain for that. And as always, there is NO warranty or return policy of ANY kind ^_^ Enjoy.***

Ok so now I can start. What does this list offers? It offers a "to do template" that every army IMO should be able to do. It does not depend on a structure or play style. I will try explain every thing that I know and show examples.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Now, lets begin shell we?
Every army has three sides to it. How it attack. How it defend. And finally how it accomplishes mission objectives. Lets look at all three.

----------------------------------------------------->
Attack

Hmmm so how can we "compare" a Full trust Mech Tau cadre, an Full infiltrating IG army dressed in chameleon cloaks with lass/auto cannons, A Salamander melta/flamer close quarter fighters with vindicators, an Orc war band with hard foot slugging core marching behind Killa Khan wall, etc. etc. etc.... Seems weird... Well, they all have one thing in common, they all have their own ways to deal with groups of enemies...

Every army have to be able to deal with Major Food group... They are -> GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, MCs, Light AV, Heavy AV, Skimmers. Every army should be able to deal with each food group efficiently. That doesn't mean, they should have a separate unit! That doesn't even mean that its is always the same way! Thing to remember. Don't over press on one food group. (Like don't take scatter laser, Scorpions and Shadow Weaver just to protect from GEQ.)

---->
GEQ ->
Common users: IG, Nids, Orcs, kroot(tau).
Problem: To kill one GEQ is easy. To kill 10 is easy as well. To kill 60... 100... More? That is why I think armies should have anti GEQ defense.
Solutions: ->
-> Large Blast, Blast and Template weapons. (no comment)
-> Pulse/Bolter/etc. tidal wave. (use basic shooting weapons to kill them)
-> HtH specialists. Scorpions, Kroot, etc. Better fighters will rip thru them.
-> Counter Tidal wave. Bring your own GEQ! (danger! catalyzed gaunts!)
-> Anti GEQ Weapons (Scatter laser/Heavy bolter).
These are the ones that I could come up with. All have its own draw backs, all has its advantages. For example, anti infantry weapon are great, but when opponent has no GEQ they are useless. Or Striking Scorps can take out GEQ by like crazy. But catalyzed gaunts eat them alive.

---->
MEQ ->
Common users: SMs, CSSMs, Necrons, Tau, Inquisition(GK & WH), Eldar.
Problems: Well. usual T4 and armor 3+ creates problems. They are not heavy infantry (not by a long shot). But they are resilient both in combat and under fire. m To add an insult to an injury, most of the armies have verity of special rules (Will Be Back, No Pain, Fearless, JSJ etc.) to make them even more resilient to anything.
Solutions:
-> Low AP. Weapons like plasma and melta can take them out.
-> High Str and accuracy. When you hit & wound on 2+... save doesn't matter.
-> Pulse/Tidal wave. Make them roll and roll until they fail the save.
-> HtH specialists with Power weapons/Rend/Fists/Heavy not much to say.
Again, thats what came to my mind. HtH specialists can be different from Anti-GEQ onces. Usually its easy to over d it. But on other hand, more high Str means more power versus Vehicles and Visa Versa.

---->
TEQ ->
Common users: SMs, CSMs, Tau, Nids (Brain Bugs), Inquisition(GK & WH).
Problems: Well, what can you say about T4+ incased in 2+ save and often Inv save... What else do you need?
Solutions:
Same as really MEQ... They suffer from really low numbers which means that they should be relatively easy to take down by Tidal Wave and low AP. On a flip side High Str isn't that effective without AP anymore and Inv save is pain. Most of them are HtH specialists themselves so you need even better hitters...

---->
MCs ->
Common users: Nids, DE, Eldar, CSMs, Feral Orcs.
Problems: They are soo Though, they are no longer infantry. They can't be Instant Killed, Heavily armored, T6 +, Fire two heavy weapons per turn, high Str, Ignore armor, have Multiple Wounds, etc... In other words they are big big pain. Usually put fear in hearts of people...
Solutions:
-> "Rail gun in the face". Meaning something with low AP, high Str, good BS.
-> High Str barrage. Bombard them with about 4-10 Str 7+ hits...
-> MC hunters. Mainly guys with Rending or Powerfists.
-> Auto wound from a range. Rending and Gauss can help a lot.
-> Fixed Dice. No! not "cheating"... Just wounding on fixed roll. (Poisons, Snipers, etc.)
Well, it is hard to deal with them, but it is possible. Many people field them a lot. But do not fear them so much. They are scary but still manageable.

---->
Light AV ->
Common users: Orcs, SM, Inquisition, CSMs, IG.
Problems: Well, its not hard to put a whole in a rhino. How about Chimera? ... Five Chimeras? with smoke launchers? ... exactly...
Solutions:
-> Barrage with medium str. Str 6+ in numbers can help a lot.
-> High Str. Las cannon or Power Fist can open light vehicles with ease.
-> Bag of Grenades. Basic infantry with "crack" helps. Also pretty cheap.
-> Torrent of fire. Helps, but keep in mind that not all are vulnerable.
-> Rending and Gauss. If you have access, helps lot.
Well, thats summs it up. Most of the times it just takes amount of fire. However it is still a vehicle. You shouldn't be underestimating them.

---->
Heavy AV ->
Common users: Orcs, SM, Inquisition, CSMs, IG, Necrons.
Problems: Most of them has at least one side of AV14 or some kind of trick (Orchsih armor plates and KFF) to help it ignore incoming fire. They are big, expensive and tough. Often carry the biggest guns of the army.
Solutions:
-> "Rail gun in the face". That means you can simply punch with a big gun/fist.
-> Side/Rear "entrance". Aside from Raider and "Pyramid" no one has 14AV all around...
-> MC Smash! Not a DJ name... Use monsters/walkers with their 2D6 to open tanks.
-> "Melta" range. Melta weapons in melta range can cut out huge peaces of armor
-> Rending, Gauss, Haywire, etc. Very race specific. If you can, why not?
-> Lances. Weapons with words "lance" treat AV higher then 12 as 12.
-> Bucket of dynamite. Melta bombs and such can help if you can "deliver" them.
Well, thing is, most of heavy armor is far behind the front line (artillery) or so tough (Raider) that it creates problems. Some times it pays to have "ticks" that opponent doesn't see coming. Its hard to ignore Heavy armor. But sometimes it can be just a distraction from a real problems...

---->
Skimmers ->
Common users: Eldar, DE, TAU, SM, IG, Necrons.
Problems: The reason why Skimmers are in a separate category is because they use different tactics and require different approach. "Moving fast rules" makes them very powerful, They don't need Difficult terrain tests, and most of the time have nasty upgrades.
Solutions:
-> High Str barrage. STR 6+ in multiple quantities.
-> Shake and move on. If it suppose to shoot and can't -> It wastes points.
-> Rend, Gauss, Intercept, etc. -> Racial specific -> Sure why not?
-> Side/Rear "entrance". It still works. Use it if you can.
-> Bag of grenedes. Not as effective but, yes.
Main problems with skimmers is that they are almost immune to HtH combat. Short of Intercept or really big bag of cheap grenades, nothing works in HtH. They are also more fragile then they look. Stun stops them dead and "immobilized" equals death. Main problem is that they hide a lot, and require focused high str valley. One shot is not that effective.

----------------------------------------------------->
Defense
This one is much smaller section. Every army must have defense. Against enemy fire. Whether it is using cover or getting into assault fast. We all have different perspective on the ways to stay alive. I came up with five categories. Obviously most of the time they are combined.

***Note that i is a also offensive section. You have to be able to counter defenses. It doesn't mean that you need some specific units. It just means, it pays to be aware of what can hit you.***

---->
"Bullet Proof"

Many armies rely on this type of defense. Principle is simple. Just put ubber tough troops in power armor. Basically this type of defense relies on tough troops. They are usually have 3+/2+ saves. Some have Invulnerable saves and/or Fell no pain as well as well. Combinations like Wraith wall, Mass Blood Angles' Assault Squads, etc. are basically what I mean. Even Orc's 'Ard boys are quite resilient to low AP fire. This type of defense is all about resilient "core" that can laugh at any punishments. Armies might often include MCs and hard armor screen. Basically the point is what ever is pointing at you will not get thru. It is obviously not that simple. Thats why it is rarely used as the only mean of defense.

---->
"Ya can't kill them all!"

This one relies on enormous amounts of wounds. It doesn't mean how much wounds they suffer, it is still not enough. Thee is a second part to it. Leadership of this army must be rock solid. They suppose to hold their ground even when suffer casualties. Massive amounts of wounds are usually a good idea, but again, it is rarely used lone.

---->
"If I can't see them, they can't see me... right?"

Thats VP denial way. If they can't shoot you, they can't hurt you. Thats includes simply blocking LOS or hiding in cover. Either way you are using battlefield to your advantage. Obviously, it varies from army to army. IG might use chameleon cloaks, Tau would use JsJ. The key is that most of this stuff comes either free or very cheap. Also, the smaller your army is, the easier it is to hide. On a flip side the smaller your army is the easier it is to destroy when opponent catches you. Also relying on a battle field is tricky. Sometimes there is not enough terrain and etc. That is why most of the people would employ other types of defense.

---->
"Up! Up! And away!"

If your army is based on assault then it most likely have it. Its pretty easy to explain. No one cares what guns your opponent has when you can rich him in two turns. Its an aggressive defense. Obviously it isn't employed alone, but if your army has HtH units, they will most likely use it. Close quarter armies like which hunters who have lots of meltas tend to like it as well. Infiltration, open toped vehicles, fleet, deep strike, turbo boost. All this is speed that helps you to get to your opponent NOW and not later.

---->
"Now you see me, and now you see 5 of me..."

Multiple units that become multiple targets will force the fire to split and your opponent HtH guys to choose who to assault. While it doesn't sound like much, it can be deadly. Its "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. With lots of target with each that can deal damage. It is hard to stop them all. Focusing fire will not help a lot. Again, it used with others. (7 fast targets, 7 ultra tough targets, etc.). Employed successfully by many.

----------------------------------------------------->
Mission Objectives
The shortest section. Armies must be able to capture, secure and hold objectives. Also, it should be able to hold table quarters. In other words. No army should be full static or full mobile.

Move
There are must be moving parts in your army. They could be infiltrators, mounted on vehicles, scoring vehicles, deep strikers, etc. In other words, even in most static armies, there must be units that can move and fast. They also must be able to score in order to qualify.

Hold
If they are cheap, doesn't mean they should be week. They are probably not the strongest unit in army, but they shouldn't be week either. They should be resilient both Physically and "mentally"

Amm so where is "take"? Shouldn't they be able to take objective as well? Ammm I don't think so. They could be and that would be nice, but what is the rest of the army for? Kicking your opponent from the objective is not their job. If they can, sure why not? But IMO thats not mandatory. Also they might as well do some other roles as well. For example Stealth suits are excellent GEQ counter. But it can also be used in as fast harassment, bait and Objective holder. They don't have to do just that. ^_^

-------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Ok so it is done... Its not done for Karma, mainly I just had an idea. So I wanted to write this. More then that, I want it to finish what I started. So I did. ^_^ Hopefully the other things that I start now would be easier to finish. ^_^ I hope this helped to someone. ^_^

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 05:45   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: All comers check List.

That's a really nice write up for creating a take all comers army there Red-dog.
You really should get a Karma Cookie for this. ;D
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 08:55   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: All comers check List.

+1 karma given Very nice post!
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 14:45   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: All comers check List.

Mr Hugh Laurie has made more appearances of late, dont you think guys?

It's nice seeing the creator about :P "*were not worthy*" (everyone like Waynes World)

Really nice article there, saved to my growing 40K folder *thumbs up*
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 17:58   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: All comers check List.

TO -> thanx mate ^_^ You didn't really have to give me Karma ^_^

I hope my list helped ^_^
Thanx guys ^_^.

Hope to here more comments,

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 19:26   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: All comers check List.

Hi Red_dog,

This is a good article to serve as a snapshot for common types of units and strategies. I like that skimmers are assigned a separate category- it is a different approach when it comes to downing them.

Here's a couple of other types of main strategies that I've encountered:

Staggered blitz:

The staggered blitz is designed to get slow but powerful units (like Monstrous Creatures) into close combat by using a staggered "vanguard" force that hits a line and buys enough time for the heavy hitters to get in there. This is most commonly employed by Necrons (who use wraith-wing or scarab-blitzes) and Tyranids (Hormogaunts, Stealers, and then the bigger stuff like 'fexes and tyrants), but can also be employed by armies like Chaos (raptors followed by DP's greater daemons comes to mind), or Eldar (Eldar seige setup- Avatar).

Dakka trap

Defensive dakka traps (like the Space Marine bolter trap, or static Tau) rely on drawing and trapping expensive units by baiting them with lower quality units (Firewarriors, for example). Once the attacker makes contact with the dakka trap, you simply "fold" combat by losing all the models in your enemy's kill zone and then follow up by shooting the daylights out of that unit. This tactic is extremely useful against assault-heavy glass cannon units.

Again, a very good article, and a glance at some of the stuff a "take on all comers" type player/army should be aware of.

- Yriel
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Old 31 Aug 2007, 19:55   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: All comers check List.

Thanx Yr ^_^ I tried to brake down every strategy that I know into this.

Lets see...

Staggered Blitz... Its "Up! Up! And Away!" . It rely on fast units. It doesn't have to to move 24''. It can infiltrate or deep strike. Doesn't mater, basically get to combat fast. In your case, it used to stole time. Thats kind of different I agree. But mainly it is to tie up someone FAST.

Dakka Trap... Ok I agree on this one. It is not in my write up. I am aware of people employing this technique. Its quite successful. However I am not sure where to put it...
Tell you what, I'll make a special section for "commonly used tricks". I am not doing it now, but if you or anyone can give me enough information for this section, that would be great. Seriosly ^_^.

Walk Tall everyone!!!!!
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