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Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)
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Old 07 Oct 2006, 19:25   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

I'd like to find out what the general method for working this out is:

I have a model, say, a broadside, which is size category 2 according to the rules. The broadside stands on a hill (WYSIWYG), which is, for convenience, 3" in height. It overlooks a pile of rubble, which is area terrain of size category 2. Beyond the rubble stands a group of orks, who are size 2 as well.

Can the broadside see the orks? Can the orks see the broadside?

Best,
Gram
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Old 07 Oct 2006, 19:28   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

well, the size of the battle suit is roghly 3" isn't it? therefore the hill would be size two, so no, i don't think that you would be able to.
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Old 07 Oct 2006, 19:36   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

The hill is not size 2, it is WYSIWYG, and therefore does not have a size category.

Thanks for replying though.

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Gram
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Old 10 Oct 2006, 20:18   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

Sorry to double post, but I wanted to bump this up and see if anyone can give me an idea of what they do in this situation.

Best,
Gram
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Old 10 Oct 2006, 20:24   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

Me? I'd just try to look from the Broadside's view perspective. If he can see them, then have at it!
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Old 10 Oct 2006, 20:31   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

Ok, fair enough, but his LoS crosses area terrain that is as tall as he is, and area terrain blocks LoS sight for anyone shorter. For example, if the Broadside stood on some size 2 rubble, and looked across some more size 2 rubble, he would only be able to see size 3 targets on the other side.

So how do we work this out when he is standing on WYSIWYG terrain, looking over AREA terrain?

I can't find anything in the rules to say whether the size 2 rubble still block LoS when he is on the hill, or not.

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Old 11 Oct 2006, 01:32   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

Remember something here, size is based from the base of the table (What you might call ground level.) Therefore I go with Mortis, since the hill is as tall as size 2 terrain, and he is on top of it, then he can see over the wall and therefore see anything on the other side.
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Old 11 Oct 2006, 01:54   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

If we use the area terrain rules for the WYSIWYG hill, then the hill would have to be size 3 before he could see over it.

Are you saying that area terrain rules are not used in this case, as there are two types of terrain in play, or are you thinking that a size 2 model on size 2 terrain is greater than size 2 in height? It does not work like that, if a size 2 model stands on size 2 area terrain, it is still counted as size 2, and therefore cannot see over anything but size 1 area terrain, or targets that are (or are on top of terrain which is) size 3.

The only solution appears to be to give the WYSIWYG hill a size category as though it was area terrain, when in fact it does not use other area terrain rules.

Best,
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Old 11 Oct 2006, 04:49   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

Gramlin,

A perhaps, simple answer:

40k RuleBook FAQ
Shooting
"... the model counts as being the same size as the hill.... [the model] therefore count(s) as Size 3 for the purpose of LOS over Area Terrain and other models..."

Typically, as you stated, we use real line of sight and terrain is as high as it truly is. However, because this can become extremely complicated (though it seems it shouldn't be), we can class things as Area Terrain (to simply make it easier, and class it as a size category so that there's no question about it). In GW's example, they too used a hill. They called it size three (for the sake of ease I assume?) and put a model on it as well as a tank on it, and say they count as the same size as the terrain category. This FAQ part from GW simply gives us something to use when determining area terrain line of sight and other models (only for area terrain LOS and seeing over models). Real line of sight is still in fact used (just as in their example, they mention the tank still has an advantage, since it may have a high turret, etc) when looking at non-area terrain.

In your example of the XV88 on a hill, the XV88 would be classed as the same height as the hill you're on. You could probably agree that 3" is going to be size 3 (3" is mighty tall in 40k!). The FAQ makes it clear that he would easily see over size 2 category area terrain (your rubble) and nail those Orks (size 2) with ease. And, the Orks could indeed see the XV88 in return, since he is as tall as the terrain (size 3) from over the size 2 area terrain (your rubble) in front of them. Just like the normal rules as stated for line of sight and area terrain.

I imagine that should clear up what you're asking?

Cheers!
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Old 11 Oct 2006, 11:05   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Line of Sight from WYSIWYG terrain across Area Terrain (question)

Thanks Malveux,

I have read that example you cited, though my confusion was based on whether or not it was common practice to grant non-area terrain pieces a size category.

If this is what you normally do, and what others normally do, I will do it too.

To quote myself:
Quote:
The only solution appears to be to give the WYSIWYG hill a size category as though it was area terrain, when in fact it does not use other area terrain rules.
So you see I was heading that way myself.

Do you only use the size category rules, or do you then feel the boundaries are sufficiently blurred to allow, for instance, Lictors to deep strike into the hill terrain even though it is not strictly area terrain, as required by Lictors? I feel we need to be pretty definite about such things.

But terrain rules are rather flexibile. I discussed this in my "Charging up a hill" thread over in House Rules even before the FAQ came out. The rules do say that some terrain can be a mixture of categories, although the examples given for this basically include a mixture of difficult and impassible, rather than a mixture of area and WYSIWYG, which seem to be a slightly different set of distinctions.

Thank you for your thoughts on this,
Gram
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