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When did cheese start?
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 03:19   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
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Default When did cheese start?

When did all this talk of cheese originate? Was it something new with the 4th edition rules? I just don't understand all the controversy of it. When I played 40k about 5 years ago regularly I had never once heard of cheese. Everyone person I played with strived to find all the little tricks of their army's and it was called knowing your army. Now people are always talking about "rules lawering" and such when really to me, its just knowing your army inside and out.

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Old 06 Jul 2006, 03:35   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

it started a long long time ago...in an age where Table Top wargames were just fledgling concepts but out there. Cheese is something that many games are concerned with because of the cheepness factor in them, like taking 9 railguns in a Tau army against armored company, simply things like that. giving yourself an advantage or overusing a certain element to make yourself better at it.

those are my views on it.
Old 06 Jul 2006, 08:44   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

I could understand building an army to directly combat one type of opponenet, but I wouldn't call that cheese. I would say that was cheating, because your fielding an army based on what your opponent is going to be fielding. On the other hand, if you always field 9 rail guns, it isn't really cheese, because it can always be countered.

There are people who love 40k because they like building models, or they like painting models, or they like playing, or they just like winning. Then again there are people who enjoy tactics, and people who enjoy studying the rules to figure out how to get the most out of an army.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 08:45   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

Up my way we refered to it as 'beardy' but the idea is still the same.

I personally blame the games writers for it. Its caused by the general trend of each codex to be better than the last, rather than balanced. If you look at an other game (Warmachine for example) the game balance is much much better, and the building of beardy lists is almost impossible. Of course Warmachine has only 5 factions were as 40K has many more, so I can see the difficaulty in getting the balance right.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 11:30   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

While I do agree with the comments above, surely it is dependant on view point.

Cheese is something that many games are concerned with because of the cheepness factor in them, like taking 9 railguns in a Tau army against armored company, simply things like that. giving yourself an advantage or overusing a certain element to make yourself better at it.
In this example, which list is cheesy? I have read players on this forum referring to the armoured company list as cheesy. I am not giving my view on that, but does saying an army is cheesy not depend on how you look at the list? If you saw the armoured company as cheesy, than the 9 railgun list above could either be cheesy or geared for survival against a powerful list. In the situation listed it might not be cheesy after all due to necessity, yet against a non-armoured company list, perhaps it could be seen as cheesy.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 11:40   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

many people also describe cheesey as going against the fluff. however, i think this can be a bit of a stupid argument, because its so easy to bypass.

if you saw a space marine army with a terminator command squad, 3 termie squads, 2 tactical squads and a land raider or two - anyone would say cheesey. but as soon as the tactical squads go, all the player has to do is call it deathwing, and nobody has a problem with it because its fluffy, but arguably the first list was fluffy. it could be a first company force, and this could be reinforced by tactical squads painted like veterans.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 14:10   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

As far as I'm concerned very few lists are at the level of "universal cheese". Most of the time its the players that take things way too far with their armies. Take the IWs for example. There are certainly decent IW players out there who arent just out to win at all costs, but the armies potential for nonsense tends to attract all the demented powergaming lunatics.

My belief is that there are 3 kinds of army lists. 1) Flufftastic: Armies who's units were chosen because they fit in well with the fluff. 2) Competitive: Armies which select units mostly based on effectiveness, but have limits and may still include units because they're fluffy and the army may still have some sort of theme. 3) Cheeseball, Powergaming Shenannigans: 9 obies+ 4 pie plates and the nastiest daemon prince possible. Thats an example , there are other types of this list.

Personally I think we should keep to the first 2. Its Ok to use a competitive list, especially in trounaments, just dont take things to the point where its no fun for your opponent
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 15:02   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

to undeerstand cheese, you must understand the "tier" concept of 40k gaming.

there are several levels of play.

the first is the "utter n00b" stage. these players are typically very, very young, and barely have a grasp of their respective codex, or the main rules. these are the people who go on forums and ask for someone to explain the "to wound" chart, or explain the "force org" chart. they'll typically have hardly any understanding of fluff or their army. other than marines have lots of 4s. what the 4s mean is another matter!

the second tier is the noob stage. these guys understand the rules to a fair extent. they have their armies, and know their fluff. fine. no problems. but typically, these guys are not very good gamers. they think purely in terms of points and stats and are the main crowd who shout "wraithlord = cheese" and complain that it shouldn't exist because it'll take all their firepower to bring it down, which is obviously too much... broadsides are cheesy because they have a tl str10 gun that auto-penetrates. impeiral guard are cheesey because they have a str8 pie plate that kills whole marine squads, which is again, too powerful, because these are marines! and heaven forbid you bring a mech-tau cadre. its pure unadultered cheese! these guys are the mainstay of forum goers. and typically, they'll design army lists specifically against an opponent. they cry cheese at a lot of opportunities and would be the crowd who would almost demand a "i win on a 2+" rule.

the higher tiers are the pro-gamers of various levels. I'll just call this tier the tournament tier. These are the best players. they play tournaments. they'll have an army, and do their best to know it inside and out. they design lists to take on anyone with the minimum of swappage. they know the rules extremely well, and how to use them right. they'll design lists that are extremely functional and effective without a wasted point. if some stuff does not work, they'll either drop it or try new tactics to get it to work. lists are pure efficiency, pure lean, mean, killing machines. they'll be the gamers who will happily take on anyone regardless of their list for one reason, this being their competitiveness.

i am unashamedly in the higher tier of gaming.

Now, cheese exists when a person playing a lower tier game meets a person at a higher level.

Its a viewpoint, nothing more. ANd in the end, it really mean nothing. I will see a list with two wraithlords and see an effective list. i will know my own list and how to counter it. a level two player will balk and yell cheese because its not just one, but two wraithlords. a tier one player will say "whats a wraithlord?" and "it does what?" and after will say that wraithlords are the most broken/cheesy thing ever.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 17:39   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

When any player encounters an army that they cannot beat, they can react in one of two ways:

1) Increase the competativeness of their list and improve their own skills as a player and rise to the challenge.

2) Complain that the army they played against was unfair.

So, cheese came about the first time a player lost and chose to complain about it instead of rising to the challenge. The process repeats itself on a daily basis.
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Old 06 Jul 2006, 21:35   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: When did cheese start?

The only thing I would define as "cheese" would be buying the bare minimum troop choices, aka 6 firewarriors and 6 kroot. After that, anything goes:P
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