Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !
Closed Thread
Old 25 Jun 2006, 20:52   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 365
Default Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

Recently, I've stoped playing Mech style for many reasons which are not to be known here because they have no impacts about this topic, except for one, vehicles in 40k universe are... read the title.
Everyone knows what Mech style is, and if you don't, just browse around this forum and you'll find out.

I, right now, appology myself to those long time veterans of this long time feared Tau army composition known under the name of the Tau Air Cavalry.
Many debates have been discussed trough many ages, and from our own units blood, Mech Tau shined. Perhaps, I now wonder if we haven't all
followed a wrong path.

I base my conclusions on a single element analysis, vehicles.
Here is why :

Vehicles in Warhammer 40k, worth it?

Tau vehicles reputation isn't something to doubt of (heavy skimmers with cheap survivability systems and our mighty Railgun.... or the best armored transport avaliable... what could we ask more ? or what could our opponents ask less lol).
What I doubt of is the worth of the vehicles in the 40k universe, more precisely the Tanks one, each and every of them (yes, even your precious LandRaidy), with the only exception of the Monolith.
Why? continue to read...

Basicly, what's a Vehicle ?

We all know what vehicles are, but in game terms, they can be resumed to this : A single model worth the points of a whole squad of elites most of the time, immune to low Str Guns/Fists and normally equiped with 1 to 3 heavy guns.

Ok, but what's wrong whit them ?

What's wrong ? Here, I understand why some people won't share my humble opinion, perhaps, just think about it.

First of, they are weak. Yes, most tanks are Av11 +, and for such a reason, are immune to basic weaponry. Perhaps, which fool only has basic weaponry in his army list ? Tanks are weak because through their own existance, they created the need to be annihilated, which is ironic isn't it ?
But their 'weakness' does not hide itself only in the fact that our opponents can bring anti-tank weapons, the thing is that our opponent doesn't even need to destroy our tank in order to make it unefficient, a single roll of 1 on a glancing damage chart makes your tank unable to shoot for a whole turn... great, isn't it?
But this isn't a revelation to any of us (well, I hope... or go read your BBB....)
Perhaps, their weakness doesn't hide in their damage chart neither...
It hides itself into our whole army list composition. For a long time, I've been building forces around my vehicles, and knowing that on their own, 3 HH would only it twice a turn, which isn't enough to annihilate their own predators fast enough to at least avoid being glanced... I now had to protect my vehicles, either by hiding them/blocking LoS, or by trying to annihilate their predators trough the rest of my army... So finally, everything became a vehicle, because it has no reason to live other than annihilating things in order to let my vehicles survive. This might be just me, but it sucks... Whatever I can say about my list, if it is vehicle heavy, I'll for sure, at something like 99.99%, always have the same goals with each of my different units, not much variety after all... Also, with everything backing up something else, when one role is killed, what happen to the other ? I think you an figure it out... (no, I do not assume the whole left side is doomed, but it's role is just suddenly 'harder' to accomplish...)

Second, 180 points for a mobile Railgun, a deal Vehicle wise speaking, but is a single Railgun worth 180 ? For the reason stated above, the 180 points Railgun suddenly bacome a 1000 points Railgun... but with a new survivability, depending on the ability of the rest of my army to survive helped by the sub round, and their own strenght, while aiming at anti-tanks elements... Finally, Mech is really the easiest way to play Tau, aim with the Railgun, and shoot whats left with the hope that it is enough to make sure our mighty tanks aren't going down... nice army theme isn't ?

B-but what about their maneuvrability?

Well, their manoeuvrability has its cost... a transport that crashes is likely gonna leave some casualties to the troop, and from the game mechanics, a 12'' movement is only useful to counter assaulters. Anyway, most other races vehicles has to be stationary in order to shoot all their weapons... while elites usually has special rules to allow them some dirty tricks...
Really, movement distance isn't important at all, deployment, range, LoS and movement (any kind) are much more important.

But what about 6+ cadres lists ?

Really want to know what a 6 based cadre is ? Pure cheese, not from Fluff terms, but from game terms... boring to play against (**army switch**), it usually doesn't take too long before you ask the army switch (hahaha... for those who did not understantd : its boring to play with after a short period of time). Of course, its powerful, but its the kind of power that bring 'Him bored' to both players, nice isn't it ?

B-but is not enough just like too much ?

No, the only difference is that in this case you'll be the only one to be bored. With only 2-3 cadres to aim his whole anti-tank fire power at, your ennemy is likely going to get some nice and fast VPs, while your scoring models are falling apart... or hiding... not what I expect from a Battle, even though it is a mission and that hiding is a wise option... due to game mechanics, its wise, but game wise it sucks, for sure.

B-but then what should I do ?

Use some of the new models, play without vehicles. Pay attention to your movement and the most important thing, your opponents movement. Learn your foe, learn your strenghts and stop hiding behind those skimmer walls... 40 k is much more than efficiency, and vehicles are more than efficiency, they are a 'add boringness' factor of the game.

B-but all what you've mentionned finally doesn't prove anything... or the like.

I must agree. I suck at writting (english isn't my maternal language.... Vivre le Québec francophone... hahaha) and I'd have appreciated being better at it, but oh well...

Conclusion

In one word, what I want to say is that vehicles heavy list are extremely specialised list and that on their own tanks aren't that great (from survivability/fire power aspects). Vehicles are, for me, no longer worth it, and boring to play with (except piranahs Happy). I wonder why I've spend over 300$ on 6 models for such a low contribution to the 'fun' factor...

Rip apart my opinion if you want to, but I might not consider it...
__________________
Flesh. Meat. Prey. Hunt. Eat. Never sleep.
Bladesuit is offline  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 21:16   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alachua, Florida
Posts: 8,647
Send a message via MSN to MalVeauX
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

Salut Bladesuit,

Vehicles used to be something more than they are now. At the moment, vehicles are either over-powered, or severely under-powered it seems when we compare them to say, a squad of infantry or other units which function similar to vehicles, but are simply better at the roles. There are several cases where a vehicle is simply too good, and that there is no substitute for it. A hammerhead is an example, in my opinion of just that. However, that's not to say that they are invincible, but rather just really good to have. One of my favorites, for example, is the humble Land Speeder. It's potent, powerful and fast--and also blows up relatively easily. But it's the fastest moving heavy bolter out there.

Anyhow, a lot of vehicles took a tide for the shelf in 4th edition simply because it's so easy to shoot down a tank, while it's hard to kill 10+ infantry models while they stand there, nearly fearless, shooting back at you. We like to see things "removed" from the board when we shoot. We like to roll dice, see things happen. Vehicles pretty much roll dice, big time if you want, or they just move and stay stunned and do nothing except eventually go crashing down. Pretty extreme end of the spectrum compared to infantry who take a beating but still are active in the game. A vehicle takes a simple glance and does no more shooting after that. Pretty lame considering the alternative is usually destroyed...

So when it comes to vehicles, use, massing them, etc, a few armies can do well by that. Tau is one of them. Space Marines is one of them. Some armies don't do so well with that, like Chaos and like Dark Eldar. They just don't last all the time.

Is it boring to play with/against vehicles? It can be.
But it can be just as boring with infantry.

So in the end, why not just use both, instead of it having to be one or the other?

Cheers!
__________________
[table][tr][td][/td][td][table][tr][td] [/td][td]Apocalypse is the only way to forty-kay.[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
MalVeauX is offline  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 21:43   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 4,656
Send a message via MSN to Hunter
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

This is an interesting concept, and it has been reaised before. The difference between vehicles and troopers is that vehicles are very much all or nothing, whilst the troopers are more a case of gradually decreasing reliablity.

As was said earlier, vehicles are useful for certain areas, and in some cases you just have to have the armour to resist small arms fire. But there are places where a unit of infantry will be able to take more punishment and dish more out. It's not a case of one is better than the other, it's a case where they are so different that they can't really be compared.

__________________
Do it for KJ


Hunter is offline  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 22:53   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

Having played extensively against my brother's Eldar army I soon came to realise the value of vehicles. He used to constantly outmanoeuvre me and it forced me to mechanise. He laments the change in my army composition and I no longer have the problem of being outmanoeuvred. It's not so much because I make use of my vehicle's ability to move fast, but because he knows I can if I need to. He doesn't try to drop troops behind me to attack vulnerable units anymore because he knows I can just scoot off at a moment's notice to exploit gaps left by the redeployment of such units, making those troops redundant until they can catch up with the battle.

I'm only familiar with the use of Space Marine vehicles so I can't comment on the rest but Land Raiders are the sort of vehicles that turn the course of the battle. All that armour makes them the perfect tool for delivering command squads and Termies to the enemy's battle line. I use a Prometheus, so it's more of an infantry killing tool that's able to shrug off fire from enemy tanks, than a Tank Killer itself.

I think that 12" movement is invaluable because you just don't try to outflank a mobile army like that. On a battlefield that changes so rapidly, I value a vehicle's ability to adjust accordingly and engage new threats as they arise. You might argue that jump infantry could do just the same, but more often than not a vehicle can move just six inches to get a line of sight to a new target and inflict real damage with long ranged heavy weapons. Whereas jump infantry would have to close the distance significantly and possibly get into close combat with such a unit. That could just write them off from the rest of the battle.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 26 Jun 2006, 03:41   #5 (permalink)
77
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 984
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

This is very interesting to me because it encompasses why I stopped playing Tau and started Tyranids.

What is the one big thing that Tyranids don't have on any of their units?

- Armour Value since none of their units are vehicles.

For me, I was tired of having my HH shot, not be destroyed, but be rendered useless just to let my opponent take another crack at it. I would rather field a carnifex, have it shot, take the wound and then keep using it as normal. I was sick of having a HH that could move but not shoot, which is kind of the point of having the tank (mobile firepower) in the first place.

You want mobility? I believe that every race has some elite form of troop that has increased movement. It could be fleeting, it could be jump packs, it could be beasts/calvery; whatever, there are things that have increased mobility.

Since switching, I am building armies that are performing better and are not as frustrating to deal with (ie. no more skimmers drifting around the field...).

I am a happier 40K player since I have walked away from tanks.
77 is offline  
Old 26 Jun 2006, 06:40   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 990
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

Malveaux may be right... but is it necessarily the vehicles fault?

I think the problem lies in the tendency towards smurfage. Think about it. The land-raider is pretty damn powerful, and quite versatile. The Hammerhead is lightly armed and has short range on its secondaries, but its pretty cheap for its abilities. But my tank is pretty cheap for what it can do... so I'm not having much trouble with balancing.

But look at infantry saves and the predominance of 3+ in some armies... If all troops were moved up one step, might that not rebalance things greatly? All vehicle-weapons would most likely regain a lot of power against the infantry (which retains its tank-busting abilities).

Yes, your precious marines would die a little more often. but so would Firewarriors (suddenly 5+), guardsmen (6), chaos marines, 'nids, etc...

AP on infantry weapons could be readjusted as needed: the main issue's infantry vs vehicles here. Would that work? or would it change things in infantry vs infantry (even with ap following)? Sure you survive less often but so does the other guy, both sides by the exact same margin (1/6) so its no biggie. on the other hand, tanks and other vehicles suddenly mow down a little better.
Nova is offline  
Old 26 Jun 2006, 14:19   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hertford, UK
Posts: 5,086
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

You can't risk making vehicles too powerful when deployed against infantry though. As Bladesuit said, most vehicles are just there to counter other vehicles...if infantry have no recourse against tanks and rely on their own armoured support to take them out, what happens when the tank battles subside and the one surviving vehicle rolls out of the smoke?

If you're just suggesting that vehicle mounted weapons are made more powerful when used against infantry then I don't think that will have any impact at all. The problem is not the amount of damage vehicles can inflict, but how easily they can be rendered useless.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
Tom Norman is offline  
Old 26 Jun 2006, 17:23   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 278
Send a message via MSN to Kerwynn
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

Still if you look at most vehicles today and in the past it isnt hard to render them useless. In a way the fact that they are so vulnerable brings a level of realism. Sure they arent close to invincible but what vehicle is?
__________________
Meow Meow Meow
Kerwynn is offline  
Old 26 Jun 2006, 17:36   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 709
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

i think you are not playing with your vehicles right. When i play my goal is to use my maneuvarbilty to pull my opponent into the perfect killzone. the vehicles not only protect my troops along the way they let them get their fast and react to changes quickly. if you are playing a hammerhead dependant list no wonder you are bored. I use 1... thats right 1! hammerhead. It use it as both a method of drawing fire from my DVs and to kill troop killer vehicles if i can.
__________________
I'm the fiend, the hero, the monster, and the saint all rolled in one. You can call me The Guy.
Malcaor is offline  
Old 28 Jun 2006, 08:19   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 143
Default Re: Vehicles in 40k... an aberration !

Quote:
We all know what vehicles are, but in game terms, they can be resumed to this : A single model worth the points of a whole squad of elites most of the time, immune to low Str Guns/Fists and normally equiped with 1 to 3 heavy guns.
This is a great reason to take vehicles. Think of a dreadnought: he rocks in cc because it is so hard to destroy. Even a powerfist has problems at doing it. Often my opponent refuses to shoot at my Land Raider to finish the dread first!!

Quote:
I now had to protect my vehicles, either by hiding them/blocking LoS, or by trying to annihilate their predators trough the rest of my army... So finally, everything became a vehicle, because it has no reason to live other than annihilating things in order to let my vehicles survive. This might be just me, but it sucks...
Yeah, it's normal to protect your vehicles, but I think you should try to do the opposite: use vehicles to protect infantry. I mean: my Rhino is always destroyed at 2nd-3rd turn, but it's ok because its role is to make infantry move faster than normal, when they did it they are just mobile terrain and obviously my opponent will try to get rid of them.
Hey, no one is happy when your opponent gets those 50ish points so easily, but this is part of the game. If vehicles were invincible, that would be boring!!

Quote:
In one word, what I want to say is that vehicles heavy list are extremely specialised list and that on their own tanks aren't that great (from survivability/fire power aspects).
I agree on this point. When with one hit you blow up a predator, this is awful. However, the fire-power aspect is debatable... I like MalVeaux example:
Quote:
One of my favorites, for example, is the humble Land Speeder. It's potent, powerful and fast--and also blows up relatively easily. But it's the fastest moving heavy bolter out there.
There are many thing to consider about vehicles, and the ability to move and shoot with heavy weapons is not a little bonus.

Concluding, I think that vehicles are a love-or-hate part of the game, due to the possibilities they offer to your army and their weaknesses. The most important thing, in my opinion, is that you should always use them to help infantry, even if this means that some of them will be destroyed in the battle. The opposite turns your game in a risky tank-hunt and ignoring his infantry to dedicate to his tanks is bad, specially for cc-weak armies like Tau.

About getting bored of your game style: repeating the same tactics every game is boring...but this is not a vehicle's fault. If you made an army of only infantry, after a lot of time, this would bore you too. The point is that every army can be boring if you play it always in the same way. Try to change your tactics, change the terrains, add house-rules, and sometimes do something stupid, just to spice up the things (I agree with the confusion tactic, but only when I'm in the mood for silliness).
__________________
Black Templars: we are the real men in black vs the aliens

Tactica: Black Templars
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=28873.0

Assault cannon for Dreadnought rules!! Here's why:
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=17692.0

Make the best of your Crusader Squads. How?
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=18509.0
Balloz is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No vehicles? canderous Craftworld Eldar 15 20 Feb 2007 18:42
40k vehicles Formosa 40K Creations 7 28 Dec 2006 14:36
Vehicles Mage001 Craftworld Eldar 15 18 Sep 2006 05:36
New Tau Vehicles shasomazza Tau 9 09 Jan 2006 23:59
Tau Vehicles Muddy Tau 7 30 May 2005 10:38