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A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please
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Old 29 May 2006, 15:25   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

I thought for my 1000 post I'd try to do something useful for everyone. So here it is!

I've been reading over the rules for Skimmers in the rule book and have noticed a few interesting things.

The first thing I noticed was that the rules for them are scattered in a 3 or 4 different areas. This makes putting it all together rather interesting. Anyways, here's what I've found, if people can reference anything that contradicts some of these points please do because frankly some of this info surprised me.


[size=14pt]
How to Penetrate a Skimmer moving more than 6"
[/size]

Did you know it was possible to score a penetrating hit against a skimmer that's moved more than 6"? Well it is and here's how...

From page 69 of the Battle for Macragge Rulebook (BMR)
Quote:
Any hit that beats the Armour Value of a mobile skimmer moving more than 6" in it's last Movement phase count as glancing hits instead of penetrating hits."
The key phrase here is "any hit that beats the Armour Value"

Now a quote from page 66 of the BMR. In the 'AP 1' Weapons & Armour Penetration section

Quote:
AP 1 Weapons, such as multi-meltas, score penetrating hits even when they equal the target's Armour Value, instead of scoring glancing hits as normal. This can still be reduced back to a glancing hit due to the target being obscured or by a weapons own special rules.
So if an AP 1 weapon hits a fast moving skimmer and EQUALS it's armour value than it's a penetrating hit according to these rules. The skimmer isn't obscured, and the hit didn't BEAT it's armour value.

I'm sure this isn't the intention of the rule (it doesn't make a lot of sense since an AP 1 hit that does beat the armour is only glancing) but that's how the rules are written.

[size=14pt]
Skimmers can move within 1" of an enemy model
[/size]

Normally while moving you can't come within 1" of an enemy model however it appears that skimmers can actually fly over (but not land on) enemies as they move.

From page 70 in the BMR, found oddly enough in the Vehicles and Assaults section.

Quote:
Skimmers can always choose to move over enemy troops and this neither impedes their movement nor harms the troops below.
That seems pretty straight forward to me.

[size=14pt]
Hitting Skimmers in Combat
[/size]

You always need a "6" to hit a skimmer in combat right?
Where's this rule? It's not mentioned anywhere in the vehicles in combat section. The one section on skimmers and combat says you can move over enemy troops and tank shock as normal. No mention of that "6" to hit. Does this rule still exist in 4th edition?

Anyways, that's what I've found about skimmers, please if you can argue against it please do.


Thanks.

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Old 29 May 2006, 15:30   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

The thing about AP 1 weapons is true, but I think most people view it as an oversight in how the rules were written.

The rule about hitting skimmers on a 6 is below the table that describes the effect of vehicle speed on close-combat. Skimmers are always counted as moving over 6" if not immobilized, whether or not they actually moved, and thus may only be hit on a 6.
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Old 29 May 2006, 15:35   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

Woo thanks for pointing out the hit skimmers on a 6 part, I hadn't seen that. Knew it had to be in there somewhere.
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Old 29 May 2006, 16:17   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

LMAO, this is interesting Falstead. Not a bad thing to know in the odd case that you might need it.







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Old 29 May 2006, 17:40   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

Hmm Id say you still cannot ever penetrate a skimmer thats moving fast and heres why. While it does say that when the shot beats the armor value it becomes glancing that can also mean that the weapon has defeated the armor, punched through the armor. Thats in short what it means. Now AP1 just does this in a different way but it is still beating or penetrating the armor and thus is still a glancing hit. As your right it would be absolutely rediculous if an AP1 weapon could pen a Hammerheads front on a roll of 13 but not a roll of 14, thats just stupid. Saying that is a fairly annoying attempt at rules lawyering I hope nobody tries that though pointing that out is interesting. GW rules arent always worded very well a little logic has to be applied. It can make for some nasty headaches every once in a while.
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Old 29 May 2006, 18:21   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

While I agree it's totally illogical a roll of 13 pens and 14 glances, the way the rules are currently phrased that's how it works. Now personally I'd never play that way, and would hope no one else does either, it just doesn't make sense acording to the spirit of the game.

It's like the pyscannons vs. turbo boosting bike argument.
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Old 29 May 2006, 18:35   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

I like the way my group plays, with logic.

Of course a Psycannon won't ignore the save of the bikes, and they still get it. Anyone who argues this "Because it's in the rules" needs a good slapping.

A skimmer moving over 6" cannot be penetrated unless by a weapon with the melta rule under half range. The sheer intensity of the weapon melts right through the ship, and no amount of speed can save it.

Other than that, that's our take to those rules.
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Old 29 May 2006, 18:56   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

Skimmer moving fast wouldnt be negated by melta either you cant get a concentrated blast on something moving that fast its how it works.

To look at it another way you have normal rules then you have special rules. AP 1 is a special rule that defeats normal rules, its phrased with normal tanks in mind that do not use skimmer moving fast. The same goes for smoke launchers and vehicle obscured, things that downgrade penetrating hits to normal hits are not effected by AP1. Because they are special rules and apply instead of the normal rules. You just need to make the leap that the AP1 rules phrasing did not have fast moving skimmers, hull down vehicles and smoke obscured targets in mind. The direct phrasing of the rules may suggest that but your looking at the simple meaning of one word in a rule that has normal, standard tanks in mind of course its not going to make sense.

Each special rule that downgrades penetrating hits to glancing works in a different way but in essence all that matters is that when the rule is in effect all penetrating hits downgrade to glance, even AP1. The Skimmer moving fast is just worded a bit differently, this does not however appear to be on purpose and an AP1 shot that equals the armor value still technically beats the armor if you want to think of it that way. The results when finally applied come out to a penetrating hit which is by deffinition a hit that beat the armour value of a vehicle. With AP1 its a little special as it gets to also equal but it boils down to still a penetrating hit.

No matter how you look at it its a bad wording and makes no sense. The rules do not say an AP1 weapon can penetrate a skimmer thats moving fast its just partially appliable given the wording that they might be able to, well in my experience trying to say that doesnt cut it and is rules lawyering. Unless it specifically says in the AP1 that it can defeat the special rule of skimmer moving fast or that AP1 is an exception to skimmer moving fast than I would say you cant. GW does include such things in their special rules when that is the case they wouldnt leave something like that out.
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Old 29 May 2006, 20:16   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

I actually think the rule is written pretty clear.

Page 66 (Rule Book): `Ap1' Weapons & Armour Penetration "... This can be still be reduced back to a glancing hit due to the target being obscured. (see Obscured Targets and Glancing Hits) or by a weapon's own...."

First thing: Laugh at the typo they printed "can be still be" .... nice one.

Ok, what that rule just said is that the AP1 penetration can still be reduced to a glance. It even gives you an example and gives you the reference heading of the next set of rules to show you why. Hence the "See obscured targets and glancing hits" which happen to be a single rule under one heading, exactly written like that, on the following page.

Page 68 (Rule Book): Obscured Target & Glancing Hits - This rule is made up of two instances: Skimmers Moving Fast and Obscured Targets.

-- The AP1 rule's exception points to that exact rule set by heading name. The ruleset itself tells you that there are two times this is true, one being skimmers moving fast and the other is when vehicles are obscure.

Very clear in my opinion.

So long as you moved more than 6 inches with your skimmer, it simply cannot be penetrated.

Cheers!
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Old 30 May 2006, 00:34   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: A few comments on Skimmers - Clarification Please

what about via wriath cannons? they don't use armor!
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