Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles
Closed Thread
Old 28 Apr 2006, 15:53   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado
Posts: 349
Default I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

I brought this up before regarding CC versus a Tau tank with Flechette Dischargers.

I can't find anything that says an infantry unit attacking a tank in Close Combat would not have to take a morale check for Fall Back if it took more wounds than the tank (i.e. if it did not actually destroy the tank).

I can see how an infantry unit is not Locked in CC versus a tank with no WS, but I cannot see how, if Tau flechette dischargers score wounds against an assaulting unit, and said unit doesn't actually kill the tank, the infantry would avoid having to test morale as the "loser" by virtue of the fact that it took more Wounds than it delivered.

The rules for winning and losing a combat, as far as I can tell, don't require either side to be Locked. All I can find is that the side that takes the most wounds must check, and that there can be no Sweeping Advances or Consolidation moves.

(Indeed, one could argue speciously that even if you destroyed the tank, it's not a "Wound" as defined by rules, so the attacking infantry could still fall back...)

Help me before I make an idiot of myself on Warseer with this detail.
__________________
Proudly banned from both Mech Tau Tactica and Advanced Tau Tactica by Kai'Lore. Kai'Lore has no honor and the fact that my mere presence reminds him of this is more than his cowardly person can bear. He banned me from the new site after less than a day. =)
heliodorus04 is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 17:01   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado
Posts: 349
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

Adding more to my confusing notions of the uber-ness of the Flechette Discharger...

If a unit wishes to make a Death Or Glory attack against a vehicle equipped with Flechette Dischargers, does it have to see if it takes a wound first?

Wouldn't that be rather ironic if I tank shock you and I kill you before you can resolve your DorG attack?
__________________
Proudly banned from both Mech Tau Tactica and Advanced Tau Tactica by Kai'Lore. Kai'Lore has no honor and the fact that my mere presence reminds him of this is more than his cowardly person can bear. He banned me from the new site after less than a day. =)
heliodorus04 is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 18:03   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 776
Send a message via AIM to Earlydawn
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

If a model, be it a vehicle or standard infantry, does not have a weapon skill, then it cannot be locked in combat, as you said, nor is it considered an ongoing combat, and thus, cannot resolve. The rulebook specifically mentions morale effects against a vehicle in one of three circumstances.. shooting casualties, after resolving a combat, or during a tank shock. The first example falls into none of the above, so there is no implied morale effect.

In regard to the second question, I will have to pull out my codex to double-check, but I believe that was originally the entire point - a deterrant to having a vehicle charged. I don't recall if they changed the symantics of the functionality in the new 'Dex. I'll get back to ya.
__________________
"Phase one complete. Let's take the bridge."
Earlydawn is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 18:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado
Posts: 349
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

People tend to get real mad at me for my questions about rules. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just defending one interpretation (that is favorable to Tau, but not one I'm interested in pressing into gameplay unless the community agrees with me in a wide margin).

In the assault rules, there is nothing that says the unit has to be locked in a close combat for the check to determine who won or lost a close combat. The sequence of play, and the rules (as far as I can find the ones that dictate this) indicate that regardless of whether you're locked in close combat or not, the side of a close combat who receives more wounds than it delivers must check Ld and Fall Back if failed.

(It is at this point that I note, however speciously, that by the definition of a "Wound" it is impossible for an infantry model to "wound" a tank, because tanks have neither a T value nor a Sv value, but I'm willing to say that immobilized/destroyed counts as a "wound" for this argument in the infantry's behalf.)

So looking at the 3 points at which one checks for Morale, our Flechette Discharger wounds still 'won' the combat against the Infantry, so the Infantry must check under the second condition, losing a close combat (defined as taking more wounds than they dished out).

I stand by what I said earlier, and it's all based around the tenant that it doesn't matter if you're locked in a CC (I concede you can never lock a tank with no WS in a CC, nor be locked in by one).

Since I don't play much against walkers in CC, how does a Walker "lose" a CC?
Can they? I can't find anything that states they can, either!
__________________
Proudly banned from both Mech Tau Tactica and Advanced Tau Tactica by Kai'Lore. Kai'Lore has no honor and the fact that my mere presence reminds him of this is more than his cowardly person can bear. He banned me from the new site after less than a day. =)
heliodorus04 is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 18:28   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 1,074
Send a message via MSN to Siruk
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

Walker's never lose combats because they have no leadership, but if they are outnumbered by a certain amount then they an take automatic glancing hits etc.
__________________
Dark Eldar Wins: 20 Draws: 1 Loses: 0
Tau Wins: 11 Draws: 0 Loses: 0

Siruk is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 19:03   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 776
Send a message via AIM to Earlydawn
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

You've pretty much got it spot-on. There's no way to "wound" a vehicle, and no provisional rules to classify what counts as such. The closest thing you've got is the extra hits rule.

Can't wound one party, so there's no way to resolve the victor.
__________________
"Phase one complete. Let's take the bridge."
Earlydawn is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 19:45   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 494
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

But the only reason a walker has to take glancing hits it must lose combat first. You determine wounds on the tank by the number of times you glanced/pen. it (I think. You then go on that number to decide on which side lost combat.
__________________
A Massively Multi-Player Web-Based Zombie Apocalypse <Very Fun.
Click Here to get your brain eaten... For FREE!!!!
This statement is false.
[color=Green] How Abbadon got his hax.
[COLOR=DarkOrange]I wish my grass was emo... then it would cut itself.
ZombieKiller is offline  
Old 28 Apr 2006, 23:59   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,432
Send a message via AIM to MechTau
Default Re: I can't find a rule - CC vs Vehicles

No. A walker only looses combat by exploding.

But if heavily outnumbered, it takes additional damage to represent... well, being crawled over/pulled down by a hoard.
__________________
Watch me rebuild my army! - Now with pics of my new scheme!

Open invitation to all: Send me a pm, and I'll be have a look at your army list.
[url=http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=11198.0]Crisis Suit Theory, Army Composition, and why Fireknives suck - You've got to read this classic by T0nka
MechTau is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can vehicles makes use of the 'Run!' rule? Requisition General 40K 6 25 Dec 2009 12:03
deamonhunters special rule and vehicles Shoke The Inquisition 6 03 Dec 2008 03:39
Hard to find songs: What song and how long does it take for you to find it and ? crisis_vyper Enclave Talk 71 05 Mar 2008 21:01
Find your ELF name Tenseiga Enclave Talk 15 16 Sep 2006 05:49
Do you ever find the 'Gets Hot' rule wierd fluff wise? Mavfreak General 40K 27 06 Jan 2006 01:21