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Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 03:28   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

I was talking on another forum with a few Warhammer Fanatics and I got into a discussion with them on the subject of powergameing and most of them agreed with me, except for this one guy, and he is a nice guy really, respectable, but he views "playing to win" as he calls it, (Powergameing) as a good thing. AND he gave me this link I think the TO community would like to read this, it might give some insight...



http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/


Important note: I am just showing you what he showed me.
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 03:58   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

An interesting article but you can justify things all you want and it doesnt necessarily make them true. Powergaming is more than just playing to win. Its more about playing unrealisticly to win. Most of the times this does not result in new tactics and improvement. It results in a poorly constructed army that doesnt work together and is totally trashed by a proper balanced one that is not powergaming. While that article may be true for fighting games Warhammer is a bit different. Interesting though.
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 04:12   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

So, in essence, power gaming is basically the natural process of evolution within the workings of a game. Some are further up on the ladder than others, who are fresh to the pool. Playing to win is the will to survive, to improve...

Interesting and creative work.

But I don't agree with a lot of it. Too much justification for a very one sided flop on "winning" as the natural and right thing to do whatever it takes to achieve.

This pretty much sums up a lot of it:

Quote:
Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.
Justification for winning at all costs, within a set of rules, always contain a clause similar to that line about restricting or making themselves weaker on purpose, for those who are not "up to the level" of expert gaming.

You've got to love how it's totally negative and "pat on the head" for the scrubs. It's not their fault after all. It's natural. They're born losers.

Quote:
After all, the vast majority of the world is scrubs. I’d say by the definition I’ve classified 99.9% of the world’s population as scrubs. Seriously. All that means is that 99.9% of the world doesn’t know what it’s like to play competitive games on a high level.
Uh oh! We're all scrubs! :'(

--- I don't buy it. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

There's nothing wrong with "wanting to win" in life. The difference is, doing it respectfully and in a manner that everyone else is accepting of, or doing it by stabbing someone in the back or poisoning someone's meal to get ahead. They're all valid ways of "winning" at something. But most of the people who make up said "game" aren't going to like you. So you have no one to play except the other "experts."

*Thumbs Up*

Cheers!
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 04:22   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

I am against it of course, just thought you guys may want to see some of their..erm.. sane arguments... I have read some old debates with some bad debaters defending powergameing.

Maybe I didn't say this the right way, I found this to help show you guys some arguments of theirs, I do not support powergameing.

As for this topic itself it I don't see it as right to play and abuse the codex, not "honorable" to me, that is of course if a table-top wargame can ever have a remote shred of honor in it. Not exactly going to die or something if you lost a game of warhammer.

I think what is also is important, as already hinted, is the people you meet, I have my own little club up and running and we play some of the crazies games around and make up some intresting scenarios, and of course joke about the SOB. Really it's not always about winning the game sometimes... Darn I am a Scrub! ;D

Note: I like how they somehow included Hilter in this segment on "Playing to win" .

Quote:
Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.
This made me chuckle ;D
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 07:18   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

Very true observations.

When you play a game, you always play to win, either the scrubby way, or the gamer way.

Some of us prefer to play by the game rules, sticking to them as was intended and by doing so have fun the gamer way. Bring on the cheesy army, alot more entertaining to beat than a "balanced" list.

If you want fun, go buy a skipping rope....cost you a damn sight less than 40k.
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 08:37   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

I find that powergaming and "cheese" are all relative.
If someone plays three wraithlords, and you have not got the guns/equipment to deal, then "Cheese! Powergamer!" is cried. Otherwise you deal.

The game ain't fair, the ability to deal with the shall we say, more difficult units makes us good commanders.


I do not support Powergaming, I think it ruins the game, but I play for fluff. If someone is so insecure about their various body parts they have to muller me by powergaming, then I don't care.

Nice article.
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 10:04   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

This was a pretty interesting article and I agree with some of it but there are a few things that make this different to playing 40k.

First of all, a cheesy army is sort of like playing one of the "boss" characters in a video game. It´s not a lot of fun to play MK3 (yeah I´m old) when you play Scorpion and the other guy plays Kintaro.

So since you decide to both play normal characters from the video game you both have "balanced" choices. So in a way it´s like choosing a balanced army.

Tactics! When you play against someone of your own skill you do anything you can to win with your balanced list! There is no cheating in that, it´s not like you´re doing anything other than making him think hard about his moves and strategies. The game can still be light-hearted and not really serious, it´s still just a game.

Then we have the game where you´re playing against someone new or a "scrub" as they like to call them. You´re not really trying AS hard but you´re still trying to win. You do this to challenge your "scrub" opponent and to make him think about his tactics and strategies, you don´t let him beat you just because he´s new (well unless it´s a little kid). The guy that wrote this article has probably played against some "scrubs" and kinda taken it a little easy on them just to make it more fun even though he´ll end up winning. He probably could take the guy out in 15sec but skips a few ultra combos and kills him in 30sec instead.

When you play an opponent you play to win, not at all costs though or you´d just play kids and give them bad advice. If your opponent is still learning you give him a little slack or give him a few advice on good moves for him against you.

Let´s keep it fun but competative ;D
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 10:45   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

"Lets keep it fun but competitive"

If the rules of the game arn't fun from the off and require you to make up your own rules....one has to ask why are you playing it in the first place?
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 11:05   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

Pure grox-dung. This article is absolute trite, totally failing to consider any aspect of the gaming world (in this case, beat-em-ups) aside from winning.

There are things this airhead is oblivious to... things like "style" and "sportsmanship". He even took the time to bash concepts of honour...


Let's take a holiday example. Tekken Tag Tournament. I won that game a lot, but I didn't win because I "played to win", I won because I'm good, and the reason I'm good is that I know what works. However, I am also aware that there is a player stood next to me, a player who has paid for the honour of having his backside kicked in by my Yoshi-Kuni team. It is my privilage, nay duty, to give him a good fight. That means that I should make it flashy, make it tense, and let him believe that he could have won... even when he never really stood a chance.

For example, Yoshi has what is essentially a "three-hit-kill" combo. Start with a back-hand, then quick-step and grapple for a skull-crusher somersault, and follow up with a shark-dive-moonsault. That takes off in the region of 80-95% health, based on character.

It is also not fun to be hit by, so I vary. For example with Kunimitsu I vary between shark-dive lunge, shark-dive cartwheel kick, and shark-dive vault (which just looks absolutely brilliant when they try and tag-out...). The look on an opponent's face when they try to tag-out, only to see Kuni fly over to block their path and, with the fury of an avenging angel, roundhouse kick their teeth out for the KO.


The author of this article is known in D&D terms as a "Munchkin". If he played D&D, he'd be pon-pon the Kobold (a character build which, by exploitation of loopholes, has infinite Strength and Constitution, thus cannot be killed and auto-kills everyone).

There is no skill in "playing to win". The true masters Play with Style, and that is the ultimate challenge.
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 11:17   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oniyoh's findings!! ( Why powergamer may powergame!)

I think the point of the article is more "play by the rules" rather than "win at all costs".

I have no problem with that approach, because the opposite is far more insidious to me. I would rather play against an opponent who took three wraithlords and a 50 man seer council than be subjected to insults and criticism whenever I played an army that my opponent didn't like.

The key here is that you play within the rules, not outside the rules. A well-designed tournament has rules. These include painting scores, sportsmanship scores, and composition scores. Now, if all you want to win is best general, go ahead and take your 50 seers and 3 wraithlords and have at. Just realize, upfront, that you won't win the overall prize because your sportsmanship and composition scores won't be so good.

Also, remember, that at tournaments, you play missions, not "kill eveything". Cheesy armies may be good at killing stuff, but they're usually not balanced enough to complete missions.

Case in point: my friend Mike, who I went to college with, is a powergamer. He's a powergamer not because of some personality defect, but because he's a very logical math-oriented person. His dayjob is... get this... crunching numbers for the USAF so that our real-world army list is more efficient.

So, he enters a gladiator tournament at adepticon. Gladiator tournaments are all about the battle points, and not so much about anything else. One of the rules is, "anything goes, no whining." It's kind of nice not to have to deal with whining. Anyhow, he makes a tyranid army, using one of the forgeworld Heirophants, and a couple of other things. And he splits his games, massacring two, but being massacred in the others. Because... while a 900 point beast might kill a lot, it's only one model, and can only claim one table quarter. And although that model didn't take a single wound all weekend, he lost games to cheap scoring units that could just hide from it.


I am in support of what that article says. Not because I'm a powergamer (I bring orks to tournaments) but because I believe that the way to defeat hard lists isn't through whining about them, or saying they're unrealistic (what part of seven-foot tall super soldiers struck you as particularly realistic anyway?!?), it's by playing missions and beating them with balanced armies. The moment you whine about someone else's army, you're making the game less fun for someone else.
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