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Disembarking Rule Clarification
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Old 12 Apr 2006, 08:04   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Disembarking Rule Clarification

When a transport carrying troops is destroyed on the glancing table, do the disembarking passengers still need to stay within 2" of the wrecked vehicle's access points?
Or can they exit anywhere as long as its within 2" of the wreck?
Some people even argued that the troops may disembark on TOP of the wrecked vehicle..

Example:
A Chaos Predator moves within 1" of an Eldar WaveSerpent's rear access point. The Predator shoots, hits, glances and destroys the WaveSerpent.
Can the passengers crawl out the front and/or side of the wrecked WaveSerpent?
Or are they removed from play due to the Predator blocking the rear hatch?

:-\
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Old 12 Apr 2006, 13:32   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

The rules for a wrecked vehicle don't change in that you must exit and be within 2 inches of the vehicle exit points.
However, as soon as the vehicle is destroyed, it becomes a piece of terrain. There is nothing that I know of that indicates you can't be on top of your wreck so long as you are within two inches of your "destroyed vehicle terrain piece exit points"
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Old 13 Apr 2006, 01:49   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by heliodorus04
The rules for a wrecked vehicle don't change in that you must exit and be within 2 inches of the vehicle exit points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heliodorus04
However, as soon as the vehicle is destroyed, it becomes a piece of terrain.
Yeah that's one of the complications over at ATT forums when debating this rule.
As soon as the vehicle is destroyed, it's a piece of terrain, and there's no mention of terrain having exit points. Then that would allow the passengers to be deployed anywhere including on top of the terrain.

Another argument could be disembarking passangers must remain 2" of an access point [period]

I'm gunna call the roolzboyz when I have time..
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Old 13 Apr 2006, 02:46   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

Hmm, I always thought that as soon as you get a penetratig hit, all models inside the transport MUST disembark. However, I think on the transport damage table that passengers have to also get out of the vehicle first if the vehicle is wrecked.
After all who in their right minds would stay inside a burning wreck?
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Old 13 Apr 2006, 03:32   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by yangman
Hmm, I always thought that as soon as you get a penetratig hit, all models inside the transport MUST disembark. However, I think on the transport damage table that passengers have to also get out of the vehicle first if the vehicle is wrecked.
After all who in their right minds would stay inside a burning wreck?
Yeah on a penetrating hit, everything would be simple
But on a glancing 6, it gets a little complicated..

I guess when the vehicle is hit, some passengers would make it out on time, while some have to crawl their way out of the wreck after its been hit, hence the Entangled rule..
I dunnoooo..
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Old 13 Apr 2006, 13:30   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

I've seen this come up in a few places... it's problematic. And the problem doesn't actually exist, it's just people trying to find a way to exploit a rule to make it better for them (along with a few honest people who simply see the discrepancy and wondered how it would work out in a game).

Let's use two things: The spirit of the game & The rules.

Spirit of the Game Dictates:

If the vehicle was destroyed, the members would have jumped out before it was blown to bits, or as it was blown to bits. They would not magically exit from the sides and in a strange whirling dervish, land on top of the rubble, in magical safety with full cover saves. They would have been scattered around the vehicle's exists, where they leap from the heap as it blew up. That's why we even test to see if they're hurt depending on the damage. And other times, they just exist as there was no chance to be hurt, but the vehicle was scrapped. Either way, they leave it before. Not after the roof falls on their heads.

[size=7pt]Disclaimer: This is sarcasm as a result of reading on several boards the kind of stuff people are trying to make exist in our rulebook which do not.[/size]

The Rules Dictate:

The rules can be more tricky, but here it is... simply put:

~ Penetrating Hit & Glancing Hit Vehicle Destroyed~

Step 1: Vehicle is hit and penetrated (or destroyed on a glancing hit vehicle destroyed).
Step 2: Passengers immediately perform a "disembarkation move" (page 68).
Step 3: Passengers follow the rules for the "disembarkation move" (found on page 62).

That's where most of the lawyering is coming from. The rules state specifically that they make a disembarkation move, which is very specific and has specific rules. There's no getting on top of vehicles during this move. Instead, there's a very nice example how and text that states that if they cannot get out of the vehicle, they are destroyed. Now, if they were always allowed to get on top of the vehicle, then there would nearly never be destroyed passengers. If you're trying to keep trapped passengers alive by always putting them on top of your wrecked vehicle now that it is terrain, you're cheating, because it's not part of the disembarkation rules.

Step 4: If the Passengers cannot perform the "disembarkation move" they are destroyed.

--- No need to try to assume and create rules that are not in our book. It's very simple and very streamline. You follow a normal disembarkation move, just as the rule states you follow, which is a bolded rule with specific means of use. None of this getting on top of wrecks stuff exists. That's people trying to lawyer things which are not written and don't even make sense.

Cheers!
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Old 13 Apr 2006, 20:27   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

Thanks MalVeauX, your posts are always so detailed and clear.

What you said is basically the argument I go with. If passengers must disembark, whether forced or voluntary, they must disembark through any available access points. I had a discussion with GW employees and it frustrates me to hear the "well the vehicle is full of holes so they might be able to crawl out of them, including holes in the roof."
But again, rulebook more-or-less says:
All passengers disembarking must do so through access points, and there is no mention ever about wrecks having access points..

Fluff-wise anyone can come up with a ton of reasons about how troops might be able to disembark ontop of the wreck, or out of a side without access points but that is fluff and not in the rules.

I'm going to be testing piranhas and the cheesy "Feeding Frenzy" maneuver tomorrow (scheduled game with Eldar friend on Friday) and wanted to know how to position them for maximum damage, so I've been pushing this question of the wrecks to come up with a valid, clear and logical argument just in case.

Thx again for the nice post. :funny:
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 15:01   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX

Spirit of the Game Dictates:

If the vehicle was destroyed, the members would have jumped out before it was blown to bits, or as it was blown to bits. They would not magically exit from the sides and in a strange whirling dervish, land on top of the rubble, in magical safety with full cover saves. They would have been scattered around the vehicle's exists, where they leap from the heap as it blew up. That's why we even test to see if they're hurt depending on the damage. And other times, they just exist as there was no chance to be hurt, but the vehicle was scrapped. Either way, they leave it before. Not after the roof falls on their heads.
Actually, Mal, I'm going to disagree with you here, as I was an armored vehicle crewman for my 4-year military career (m1a1 abrams). There are two times you get out of a heavily armored vehicle in a combat situation:

First, if it's immobilized. If it's immobilized, you're going to get shot until you're on fire (that's when you know the enemy tank is no longer a threat, when it's burning or exploding). Tank crews are taught to shoot at an enemy threat until you're REALLY sure that it's NOT a threat any more. In Gulf War 1, we shot again if it wasn't on fire (fortunately, usually one shot destroyed enemy tanks quite obviously, with turrets popping 100 feet in the air!)

Second, when there's a fire. Fires in tanks are the major bummer in your world. You don't take chances. Fire, fuel, and explosives are simply a bad combo.

I was in a tank on a practice gunnery range when our fire extinguishers popped for some unknown reason and we bailed the hell out with a live round in the gun, and so the crew is doing "the drill" which involves swinging the main gun over the side of the tank to make it easier for the driver to exit, and the control tower is yelling at us to keep our gun elevated and pointed down-range, while fire extinguisher smoke is pouring out of the turret. Funny stuff, once we got out and realized it was just a sensor error that popped the extinguishers.

Anyhow. If you're mobile, you don't get out of your tank, because you're always safer in it than out. So to say you get out "before" it's destroyed is, in my experience, not quite right.

Now, by rule, I can see the issue of "exit points." And rules-wise, I agree with the idea of a "disembarkation move". The way I have always played it (and this almost never comes up because my tanks are destroyed at range, where exiting isn't a problem) is that if enemy models are within 1 inch of an exit point, I can't use that exit point to measure the 2-inches from. That's within the letter of the rules for a "disembarkation move", as Mal asserts.

But I also play it that you can use an exit point and get into the "wreck" area of your tank. This is logical self-preservation of an infantry unit. Stay near the tank, take cover in whatever you can, until something safer comes along. In the immediate chaos of a disembarkation, if you're not on fire (which I would assert is only a "vehicle explodes" result in this game, so a penetrating 6 or the associated consequence on the Ordnance damage chart), the armor is one of the safest places to stay for protection.

So to summarize how we do it here - you make a disembarkation move, but the newly converted terrain that used to be your tank is legal deployment area for the rule "within 2-inches of an exit point". You may not use any exit point to measure from if there are enemy models within 1-inch of that exit point. This, to me, is a more streamlined way to go, is completely within the legal points of the rules, and, I assert, the spirit of them.

Just because your vehicle is a wreck does not mean it's not a safe place to be, at least temporarily.

Indeed, when you consider such things as a tyranid close-combat destruction of your vehicle, you'd probably want to keep some chunks of metal between you and them rather than neatly and in an orderly manner pile out into the open like school children off of a bus, right?
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 19:36   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

I called roolzboyz at GW Direct Services yesterday and asked about it. The guy answered so quickly as if he's been asked this question a thousand times over in his history of employment. (i wouldnt be surprised)

He said that the passengers disembarking must do so using the access points and that they cannot be deployed ontop of the wreck.. Apparently the vehicle is not considered a wreck until all it is void of passengers so until the disembarkation move is complete, the vehicle is still a living vehicle.

I tried to counter argue it hoping to get more information but he basically kept repeating the sequence of events as the rule. Hit - APen = Glancing - DamageRoll = 6/Vehicle Destroyed - Passengers Disembark - Vehicle becomes a wreck.

'Would've made me more satisfied if he quoted a page or two out of the rule book but I ran out of time as class was starting.

For anyone who's wondering the number to contact the "RoolzBoyz" is 1-800-394-GAME (4263)
Info on GW site: http://us.games-workshop.com/shopping/mailorder.htm
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Old 14 Apr 2006, 21:10   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Disembarking Rule Clarification

From what I've heard of rules boyz, they never give the same answer twice
Take it for what it's worth.
There's certainly no absolute clarity in the rulebook to support his position...
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