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what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army
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Old 10 May 2010, 01:45   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army

Hey everyone my bro is going to start playing 40k. it is his first army and he wants to start a chaos space marine army we already have the codex on order. But i don't know what troops or vehicles he is going to want or need so some advice would be nice thanks.

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Old 10 May 2010, 03:17   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army

Well what does he want to focus on? CSM have great infantry, probably the best in the game. Their tanks and walkers aren't top notch but they get the job done and many people don't use the fast attack options.

In terms of the best of the best from each slot:

HQ - They are all good, bottom line.
Elite - Depends, but most of the time you can't go wrong with any of them aside from possessed, though I personally like them
Troops - The situation, MEQ armies? Thousand sons, need strong melee? Bezerkers, need units that just won't die? Plague marines. Need mass shooting? noise marines. The basic marines are excellent too, and versatile.
Fast - Eh... don't take any spawn ever, raptors are probably the best bet, though bikes can work
Heavy - Obliterators are your chaos swiss army knife, they have more weapons then a greedy techpriest. Havok squads work well with heavy bolters or missiles, for the rest of the vehicles one thing: The ability to take demonic possession so that they can always move and shoot unless destroyed is excellent.

Your friend can always look at the special HQ's and choose that way, start themed and branch out.
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Old 10 May 2010, 03:55   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army

Here is an easy guide, I'll just categorize as Good, Par, Bad.


HQ:
Under 130pts: Sorcerer-Good, Lord-Bad(under 130 sorcerer is almost always much better), DP-normally needs more stuff.

Part of the reason for the lord sorcerer situation is that the sorcerer's starting gear is so much better than the Lords. A Lord with a power weapon is only 5pts less than a sorcerer with a force weapon and doombolt(marine killing shooty power)... thats 5pts very well spent. For the Lord to be worth it he really needs dual claws or a demon weapon and either wings or terminator armor... by the time you add all that hes over 130. So when you want cheap a sorcerer is always the best option.

Over 130pts: Sorcerer-Par, Lord-Par, DP-Good, needs wings, best psychic power for a DP is warptime.

Elites:
Assault(so Lighting claws, power fists, etc.) Terminators- Par-Good, need a landraider to be effective which makes them expensive.

Shooty Terminators(combi weapons)- Good. Best kept cheep, good for deep striking. Many chaos players will take 3 with combi meltas for deep strike tank hunting .

Chosen-Par, decent infiltrating unit.

Possessed-Horrible... yes I went lower than my predetermined scale would go. They are that bad. They are an Assault only unit. Statistically bezerkers(which can shoot and are scoring) are many times better in assault, and for the points chaos marines are 'as' good in assault but are also great at shooting and are a scoring unit. Possessed just don't compare with the other things you could spend the points on. If you want an awesome assault unit... just take bezerkers.

Dreadnought: Bad... geared for close combat its Par. Geared for shooting it is FAR to likely to shoot your own units. Most people who take these shelf them after 3-4 games for that very reason.

Troops:
Chaos Marines:Good, put them in a rhino with 2 of the same special weapon, a champion with a power weapon or power fist and your set to go. Not very good with heavy weapons. Chaos is best as a mobile in your face army... and chaos marines especially so.

Plague Marines: Good Repeat above. Best squad size 7-8 guys.

Bezerkers: Good. Don't bother with special weapons, just throw in a skull champion with a power weapon or power fist and your set to go... don't forget the rhino or a Land Raider. These guys are great in land raiders. Best squad size is 8... which is also extremely fluffy for bezerkers, their sacred number is 8 ;D.

Noise Marines: Par. Good at shooting long range, otherwise basic marines will normally do just as well if not better for the points.

Thousand Sons: Bad. Are good against other marines, but really suffer against armies that don't have 3+ saves. Hordes are just to numerous, and they have little for dealing with 2+ saves.

Fast Attack:
Raptors: Par, but the best fast attack chaos has.

Bikes: Bad, horribly overpriced.

Spawn: Bad for their points cost, some disagree with me but I think they should be 25-30pts at most.

Heavy Support:
Obliterators: Good, most versatile ranged unit in the game, hands down.

Defilers : Good, its a non-crazy dreadnought with a battlecannon... whats not to like?

Vindicators: Good, but you need more than one to be survivable.

Predators: Par... most chaos units rush the enemy, so they don't really fit with the playstyle since they can't move and fire all their weapons.

Havoks: Par... decent for loading up on special weapons(4 meltas anyone) and throwing in a rhino, but at ranged shooting obliterators will just about always be better.

Lesser Demons: Par-Good, great for dropping on objectives and surprising people.

Greater Demons: Par I think he is good for his points, where he suffers is that a champion has to die and champions tend to be the backbones of our squads.

Special Characters: Kharne: Good. Abbadon: Par-Good but really expensive, and NEEDs to join a squad(5 assault geared terminators or 8 bezerkers) in a landraider... so you end up with a 750pt unit counting the LR. Avoid till high point games. The rest are really overpriced for what they do.

Hope that is what you were looking for. Good rule of thumb for chaos. Between 50-70% of your points should be spent on troops in rhinos. This army has a sweat spot of HtH-12", get in that sweat spot and they maim most enemies. All troops should be in rhinos, and HQs should be rhinos or have wings. With the exception of things that deepstrike and defilers(which do have fleet) everything in the army should be moving 12" a turn.

Its a good army though. Most of armies that haven't been updated for 5th edition really suffer against 5th ed armies. CSMs have been little holding their own though, at least in my experience.
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Old 10 May 2010, 06:24   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army

Well thank you very much i will let him read this when i see him tomorrow. You are all still ok to post advice. he wants me to help him out with building the army. i am a Tau player and i don't have a clue about CSM. but more advice like what playstyle is the best to start out with? is another one he asked me today. I will also post a list of what he wants. But thank you all for the advice
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Old 10 May 2010, 16:57   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army

one thing I'd like to point out is that you're just not giving havocs enough love. Yes, obliterators are wonderful, wonderful little canisters of compressed death, but havocs are just as good.

Consider going over the HQ choices, you had separate sections for cheaper and more expensive options. This should be the same when looking at Havocs vs. Obliterators:

Obliterators will carry multiple weapons for every situation, deepstrike, be able to move and shoot heavy weapons, and generally be about as stubborn as two wound terminators.

Havocs will do none of that, however, havocs are a tiny fraction of the cost and can have 4 heavy or special weapons a squad (plus a combiweapon on the squad leader if you must) have a large unit size so they can carry around plenty of ablative wounds. They also can get an icon of Tzeentch, if so they're just about as tough. Basically Havocs dont get all the special rules and cool perks of moving while shooting and you gotta pick a single gun and stick with it, but you get a lot more raw firepower and ability to take a lot more damage without losing heavy/special weapons, cheaper.
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Old 11 May 2010, 00:02   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: what do i need to start a good Chaos SM army

How are havoks a fraction of the cost? Individually yes. But you need at least one ablative wound for each guy if your using them as a long ranged unit.

So lets say a small squad of 6 guys, 3 missile launchers/autocannons. 150pts. 2 obliterators 150pts. Yes the havoks have more weapons, and more wounds. But IMO the 2 oblits win out because of more weapon choices, str 9, or str 7 ap2 template instead of str 8 and str 4 template, not to mention twin linked meltas and plasma. The oblits are also fearless, and they come with powerfists already included. For the havoks to get close to fearless they need a champion and an icon making them even more expensive. And oblits can't move much but being able to move and fire helps, deepstrike firing helps even more.

I didn't say havoks were bad, but IMO... and in the opinions of chaos tourny players oblits are better than havoks. I say that because most tourny lists include obliterators. I haven't seen any with havoks. For the points havoks can pump out more firepower at range, but I prefer obliterators for all their overall tactical usefulness. Now again, for a short ranged melta or flamer unit they are great. I just don't find them as good as other options at range. Part of this... is because chaos isn't good at range. Obliterators can deepstrike so if you need them further up that is an option, or you can slowly move them up the field. Long range havoks tend to sit still the entire game. Not a bad thing... just doesn't go well with the CSM playstyle.


Best playstyle. Mechanized troop heavy, as I detailed above.
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Old 21 Jul 2011, 23:38   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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I found that getting either daemon prince or terminator lord, some obliterators and possessed marines with many normal marines make a good start.
Also which chaos lord did he choose?
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