[IDontPlayTau]

Hey a lot of people at my local store are starting Chaos (specifically Death Guard, 2 people starting them) and I was kinda interested. I've been playing eldar since 3rd edition and i really like the psychic powers so Tzeench really appealed to me after I realized that Khorne is too much like Space Wolves...(i play wolves too). What's a good way to play this list? It seems like a ridiculously small amount of models, but I like that. What would you take in, say, 1000 points?

[MalVeauX]

Welcome aboard

Well, as you know the Tzeentch marines are very expensive, and for a reason, considering they have two wounds on their basic marine. Tzeentch is very much a shooting chaos force; even their daemons are shooting based, contrary to the other cult daemons, which are all assault based. There is a single assault based tzeentch unit, the Screamers. Tzeentch has more daemons than anyone else, as they're cheaper than the very rare and powerful rubric marines.

Tzeentch can make a great use of their marines as a focal point in their army which is very resilient, allowing them to summon all kinds of terrors to the field. One big thing to know about your basic troops is that they are very basic in their weapons and cannot take heavy weapons or special weapons at all - only the aspiring champion can take extra weapons or abilities which allow you to take on all targets (Bolt of Change comes to mind). So you'll have to pay attention to the rest of the force organizational charts in order to get some anti-tank support that is reliable and long range into the army. Also, note that their basic marines cannot use veteran skills.

So with that said, which models do you like?

Greater Daemons?
Daemon Princes?
Sorcerer Lords?
Marines?
Possessed?
Daemon Packs (Flamers and Horrors and Screamers) ?
Vehicles (rhinos)?
Tanks (predators, defilers) ?
Walkers (dreadnoughts) ?

Are you into shooting or assault more? Or both?

Take a long hard look into the psychic powers of Tzeentch, they're nothing like Eldar psychic powers. Tzeentch merely does not have to test for their psychic powers, so they just are used as if they were ready to go all the time.

Anyhow - the more you can tell us what you like about Tzeentch, the more helpful we can be in helping to design a 1,000 point list to search the Lord of Change

Cheers!

[IDontPlayTau]

I was messing around w/ Army Builder and i really like the standard thousand sons marines. i configured a squad of 9 w/ a champion, gave the champ bolt of change (ahhahahahha, 24" tank death) but i'm waffling between powerfists and dark blades. the dark blades are really cheap and i can't see myself getting into assault w/ something that the bolt of change can't handle...

besides the marines, are screamers really worth taking? w/ only 1 attack each i'm skeptical...but flamers, even though they have a nice weapon, are bs3 and that isn't appealing either. for an hq i'd prefer to not have a daemon prince, but something fast and decent in close combat to balance out all my Initiative 1 marines . i can't see myself taking transports of any kind....w/ slow and purposeful it's kind of a no-brainer i think...

tank wise what would be the most versatile? can i rely on my champions' bolts of change to take out tanks? or should i have lascannon support?

[MalVeauX]

Heya

Don't rely on Army Builder - it's usually incorrect and generally very dated compared to the lastest changes to the chaos codex and 4th edition.

The Bolt of Change is expensive, and it's a shooting attack - it will not do anything in close combat.
The Dark Blade is a daemonic weapon, and as such, is limited to 0-1 in the army (one only). Also, it is not cheap.
Power Fists are insanely powerful, and very cheap on a champion (much cheaper than bolt of change and the Dark Blade and provides more strength).
Your Marines "Slow & Purposeful" has been updated; you strike at normal initiative. The only thing that it alters now, is that you always move in difficult terrain and you may fire your weapons as if you were always stationary (so you still have I4). It makes the marines quite good now since they don't always strike last anymore.

If you take lots of marines - you will definitely want Rhino transports. When you can only move D6 inches per turn and you only have a bolter, and Bolt of Change is your only weapon other than that, that is ranged - you will find that 3 squads will fill up your 1,000 point list, giving you only 3 bolts of change, which is simply not enough to deal with enemy armor.

Tank wise - the Dreadnought of the Predator is perfect. The predator can pack the lastcannons for cheaper and has good armor, so it's pretty much the heavy support, anti-tank weapon of choice. But that totally depends on you.

For daemons, I highly recommend Flamers of Tzeentch over the Horrors - they're insane that you can summon them and that they have 2 wounds and all have assault 3 heavy bolter weapons. A single squad of Flamers (9 of them) will unload 27 S5 shots into your enemy the same turn they are summoned and can assault right afterwards if they're in range. Not bad.

As for an HQ - if you don't care for Daemons, you can definitely take a normal Chaos Lord (sorcerer from Tzeentch) with some fun veteran skills and some nasty combat abilities and psychic powers to back him up. He can be a first turn combat bomb if you wish. You could even take two Chaos Lt.s as your HQ as well, and equip them nicely, but not over-board to have two different sources of quick combat carnage while the rest of your army comes forward.

So how are you thinking now?

Cheers!

[IDontPlayTau]

Wow. Just goes to show I need the codex I guess. (stupid army builder :P) Oh and when I said Dark Blade I think I meant Great Weapon, the [Edited out Points Cost] point thing that gives +1 STR. Oh well. That's cool about the Initiative thing though. I also read the FAQ and found that they can sweeping advance too (a plus!). Since I won't have the codex for a little bit I opened up Army Builder again and threw together this out of date list. Please excuse anything that's out of date lol.

CSM: Thousand Sons Army

1 Chaos Lieutenant (HQ) @ 73 Pts
Make Sorcerer; Mark of Tzeentch; CC Weapon (x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
Frag Grenades
#Doombolt

8 Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 256 Pts
Favoured Unit; Mark of Tzeentch; CC Weapon (x8); Bolters
#Daemonic Essence [0]

1 Free Aspiring Champion @ [64] Pts
Free Aspiring Champion; Make Sorcerer; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolter
#Bolt of Change
Personal Icon

8 Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 256 Pts
Favoured Unit; Mark of Tzeentch; CC Weapon (x8); Bolters
#Daemonic Essence [0]

1 Free Aspiring Champion @ [64] Pts
Free Aspiring Champion; Make Sorcerer; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolter
#Bolt of Change
Personal Icon

5 Flamers of Tzeentch (Troops) @ 115 Pts
All Flamers
#Doombolt [0]

5 Flamers of Tzeentch (Troops) @ 115 Pts
All Flamers
#Doombolt [0]

1 Chaos Predator (Heavy Support) @ 185 Pts
TL Lascannons; Lascannon Sponsons
Extra Armour
Mutated Hull
Dozer Blade

Models in Army: 30


Total Army Cost: 1000

Edited to remove the individual points costs, as par the Forum Rules. In the future, please try not to post individual point costs, but it is totally ok to post total amounts for a squad, or a character for example (which I left unedited above). It's nothing too serious, but it would be best if you edit out those individual point costs prior to pasting it directly from Army Builder - we don't want to get into trouble with big old GW.

Thanks!
-MalVeauX

[frankthetank]

that look good do you think all see this army made before you leave ?

[MalVeauX]

It's a good first list actually, though a few things:

HQ - This guy can be your best source, especially for Tzeentch, for some close combat ability. I would suggest considering him more for that, instead of Doom Bolter, which you can get cheaper on other characters or units. Really though he's fine, just perhaps think about giving him a little more (the points for this will be explained by the rest).

Troop 1 & 2 - Great squads. However, when taking the mark of tzeentch, you gain an icon already, so you do not need to purchase the personal icons for your champions (saves you quite a bit of points there). On that note, I would highly recommend a power fist on those champions along with the bolt of change. That way in combat, they still have a good powerful attack each turn.

Troop 3 & 4 - Flamers are cool, but I would highly recommend not taking small squads of them. And in 1,000 points I would recommend only a single squad, not two of them. I would go for a squad of 8 (easy to purchase the even numbers) instead of 10 total Flamers (flamers do not come in a box set, horrors do). Flamers are a much larger model by the way, and very cool looking. A single squad of 8 is far more durable in terms of their instability checks, than a squad of 5 and their massed fire power does a lot more damage when they come at one time, instead of two squads hoping to come together. Dropping the 2 flamers afford you plenty of points to give the powerfists to your champions, and to afford a little more gear on your Chaos Lt.

Heavy - The predator is fine, but I would refrain from taking mutated hull just yet. It's a tough tank for sure, but at 1,000 points, it should be able to dispatch with the highest enemy armored unit, then you're ok. The saved points by dropping the mutated hull can be reinvested into those troops and chaos lt. In much larger games, you'll find that you want more models, not more upgrades.

Cheers!

[IDontPlayTau]

frank: i sure hope so . it depends on how much time i have to paint...which should be plenty, but summer laziness is very hard to break free of.

malveaux: i did what you said, here's a revised list. how does the lord look?

CSM: Thousand Sons Army

1 Chaos Lieutenant (HQ) @ 137 Pts
Make Sorcerer; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol (x1)
Frag Grenades
Daemonic Speed
Inferno Bolts
Dark Blade
#Bolt of Change

8 Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 261 Pts
Favoured Unit; Mark of Tzeentch; CC Weapon (x8); Bolters
#Daemonic Essence [0]

1 Free Aspiring Champion @ [69] Pts
Free Aspiring Champion; Make Sorcerer; Mark of Tzeentch; Power Fist
(x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
#Bolt of Change

8 Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 261 Pts
Favoured Unit; Mark of Tzeentch; CC Weapon (x8); Bolters
#Daemonic Essence [0]

1 Free Aspiring Champion @ [69] Pts
Free Aspiring Champion; Make Sorcerer; Mark of Tzeentch; Power Fist
(x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
#Bolt of Change

8 Flamers of Tzeentch (Troops) @ 184 Pts
All Flamers
#Doombolt [0]

1 Chaos Predator (Heavy Support) @ 155 Pts
TL Lascannons; Lascannon Sponsons
Extra Armour
Dozer Blade

Models in Army: 28


Total Army Cost: 998

Edited to remove the individual points costs, as par the Forum Rules. This is the second time in a row now, so this will be the final caution flag. In the future, please do not post individual point costs.

Thanks!
-MalVeauX

[MalVeauX]

Looks much better Actually, it looks quite good. I'd say you have a decent 1,000 point starter army setup!

Now - please take note to those edits/cautions in your posts above, it's important, about the posting of individual point costs.

Cheers!

[IDontPlayTau]

ack! sorry, didn't notice it the first time, won't happen again