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Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 16:38   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons with Chaos Space Marines
This is not intended to be an all-inclusive treatsie on battling Daemons. I have fought against Daemons about a dozen times and have won only once.

In my local store, we have three Daemon players. My most common opponent is Josh. Most of my observations will be from my games with him. He is a quintessential gamer: painter, sportsman, and tactician.

So I'll share my experiences and observations and I will solicit yours. Perhaps, if we work together, we can nail down some anti-Daemon tactics.

Note that I am exclusively a Nurgle player...so my experience and advice will be limited to them.


You might be a Daemon if...
You have an invulnerable save
You always deep strike
You have the Eternal Warrior special rule
You are Fearless
You don't have to take psychic tests

Basically, Daemons have a consistent core group of special rules which enable them to operate in a very unique meta-game. Without understanding this meta-game, it can be very hard to defeat or even counter a Daemon list.

Laying the foundation of the Daemonic meta is crucial to developing a winning strategy against them. Know thy enemy.

We will discuss several meta-concepts of a Daemon army below. It is important to understand how and why Daemons do well before we can fully unravel how they can be bested.

We are legion
Daemons have a relatively low cost. Their troops (Pink Horrors, Daemonettes, Bloodletters, and Plaguebearers) run around an equivalent cost to Chaos Space Marines. These troops pack special rules and can be very lethal in their own rights. There has not been a game against Daemons in which I have not been struck by the awe of the fact that these "elite" units I'm facing are actually Troops choices. Daemons troops can simultaneously swarm and specialize - a combination which is very deadly. Do not underestimate Chaos Daemons troops choices...they are among the most specialized in the game.

Enduring evil
Daemon models are very durable. Their mediocre Invulnerable Save is easily underestimated. So many armies are tooled to take down MEQ's through precision low AP weapons (mine included) or power weapons. These weapons are all but worthless against Daemons. Because they will almost always get the same save no matter what is shooting at or hitting them, quantity, not quality, is what is important.

Furthermore, Daemons possess both the Eternal Warrior and Fearless special rules. The Eternal Warrior rule is especially frustrating because, aside from HQ choices, Daemons have no fewer than 6 separate unit choices with multiple wounds. All of these are immune to Instant Death. This means that your high strength weapons and pretty much any rule that causes Instant Death (such as Force Weapons) are completely negated.

Fearless Daemons are immune to pinning and shooting casualty tests. Since shooting is the primary method for winning against Daemons, this can be frustrating. No matter how many you kill, there always seem to be a few more who make their Invulnerable Saves to charge you anyway.

Pride cometh before a fall
There is a phenomenon among Daemon adversaries. By the bottom of turn 2 or the beginning of turn 3, you are typically feeling pretty good. You have killed several units off completely. You outnumber the enemy. He seems to be losing. I even had one player comment to me that he felt bad because he was killing the Daemon player so badly.

However, it seems to merely be some cruel joke of the dark gods. Because by turn 5, things have normally swung back to the favor of the Daemon player. Perhaps this is exclusive to my gaming group, but I'm guessing that it is not.

Daemons arrive exclusively by Deep Strike. Their initial force is half of their army and can typically get decimated piecemeal. You are prepared for them, you can shoot them before the charge and everything seems well.

That isn't the end, though. Daemons continue to arrive, a trickle of incorporal bodies coalescing from the shadows of the Warp. They hone in on the Icons of their kin and arrive closer and more accurately than the initial force. Furthermore, those few stragglers from the first wave begin to tie down your shooters, limiting your mobility and setting the stage for the killing blow.

It is important to never allow yourself to become confident in the game's outcome. Play every turn like you are desperately losing. Because if you allow yourself to succumb to pride for even a moment, you will fail.

Princes of Darkness
Daemons have access to some truly monstrous creatures (no pun intended). They may take a number of Greater Daemons - each specialized to its patron god's qualities. They may take up to three Daemon Princes. They may also take a number of minor creatures with multiple wounds, up to four heralds, and the fearsome Soulgrinders. Any of these units are powerful in their own right. When facing multiple Daemonic principalities, one can be easily overwhelmed.

They came from the Warp
It should come as no surprise that Daemons Deep Strike. If you didn't know this already, you should probably return to whatever backwater, feral planet you've been hiding on for the last nine months. Daemons Deep Strike. This is both an asset and a liability. Mainly, for Daemons, it is an asset. In terms of metagame, it means that they are remarkably fast, hard to outmaneuver, and can quickly isolate the better part of an army. In terms of liability it is unreliable at times and leaves ones units open to a round of shooting before they can be combat effective.

Deep Striking is really a double edged sword. Whereas there aren't really disadvantages to any of the above meta-game themes, Deep Striking provides us with perhaps the single chink in the proverbial armor which can unravel a Daemon army. Once we get to the meta discussion, we'll address this further.

But now, on to units I've faced

Tzeentch
For the Nurgle player, Tzeentch units provide both the most worthless and most lethal Daemons simultaneously. Thankfully, my experience has been, almost exclusively, with the worthless ones. It is worth noting that Flamers are the bane of Plague Marines. Breath of Chaos is absolutely awful. I shudder a the thought of such a power being in the mutated hands of Nurgle's enemies.

Tzeentch Daemon Prince
This is a staple in my opponent's army. He is armed with the Bolt of Change and often another power. This makes him shooty but expensive. He is terribly hard to take down due to his Wounds, Toughness and Invulnerable Save. His high BS means that the Bolt of Change is the most efficient on him (second only to the Greater Daemon). While Bolt of Change is mediocre against Land Raiders...it is lethal against Nurgle special Characters and almost any other vehicle.

Counter with: close combat units. Daemon Princes are, as a rule, strong close combat adversaries. But allowing a Tzeentch Daemon Prince to roam the board freely is more dangerous. Throwing Plague Marines against this guy is a waste of points. Take him down with Terminators or, better yet, your own Daemon Prince.

Horrors
Horrors fall into that whole worthless category. They come standard with Warpfire...which is about as useful as Lasguns against Plague Marines. To put this in perspective, every Horror firing at a unit of Plague Marines will have less than a 5% chance of killing a Marine. That means that, statistically, you will need 20 Horrors to average one kill. Now, Horrors can also take Bolt of Change, but their lousy BS means that you'll only lose an average of about .4 Marines per shooting phase.

Counter with: Plague Marines. These guys win hands down in a firefight against Tzeentch horrors.

Nurgle
Nurgle vs. Nurgle seems like an abomination of sorts. But among the children of Nurgle, there is much rivalry. I will mention here that Epedemius makes for a very...interesting game. If you can get your Daemon opponent to do it at least once, it will be a boatload of fun. I promise you that.

Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers present the only Nurgle unit I have really faced. The few times I have faced them, they've been relatively worthless. But I think that is more due to their unique spot in a Daemons force than to the unit's actual potential. Plaguebearers are very durable and they can also be deadly in close combat...though not so much as Daemonettes or Bloodletters. Still, they make for a great foundation, bearing Icons into the battle for the army to center around. They are bastions of durability and can tie up precious units for the majority of the game.

Counter with: your Dreadnaught or, to a lesser extent, a Daemon Prince. The Dreadnaught will stomp all over the Plaguebearers as they fight to scratch its hull. The Daemon Prince will strike early and, hopefully, kill the greater part of the unit - minimizing his own damage. But he should not be your first choice. You can also counter with shooting. I've found massed shooting or a Vindicator very handy against Plaguebearers.

Slannesh
*Sigh*. That's all I can say here.

Daemonettes
Gods I hate Daemonettes. They are second only to Bloodletters in my hatred. Daemonettes are woefully weak against Nurgle forces. Typically, they are wounding only on 6's...but here's the rub because this practically guarantees that they are rending on all wounds. Combined with their incredible Initiative and insane number of attacks, they can quickly whittle down your units before you can even attack.

Counter with: Nurgle Terminators. With their Invulnerable Saves, high toughness, and ability to shoot and charge, Terminators should be able to endure the Rending attacks and cut the Daemonettes down. A Dreadnaught can also be deadly here, but, in truth, there are better units to attack with your Dreadnaught. Daemonettes can also fall fairly quickly to shooting. However, this is tricky because they are so fast. If you do chose to shoot, make sure that you can also absorb an assault next turn (which you probably can't).

An excellent article! +1 Karma - Anton
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 16:39   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons


Khorne
Death for the Death God...blood is overrated. Everyone around here spams Khorne. Bloodthirsters, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers. It's like they can't get enough of them. Quite frankly, I've had enough of them. In truth, Khorne units fit the Daemonic meta excellently. They are choppy to the highest level. There isn't really a good way to counter them except by simply surviving.

Bloodthirster
By the god's this guy is tough. I can honestly say that I've never killed him. He is durable so shooting is a waste. He's amazing in close combat, so that's not really an option either. Last game, he killed my Daemon Prince and a Greater Daemon in close combat...at the same time. Albeit, both had wounds already, but, honestly, that's amazing. He really does have everything. He's got a power armor save, a Tzeentch-like Invulnerable save, wings, monstrous creature, huge Strength, amazing Weapons Skill, loads of Wounds, high Initiative. But what else would you expect from an incarnation of the Blood God?

Counter with: nothing. Avoid this guy at all costs. If you can possibly spare the shooting, you might be able to bring him down with a load of shots. Obliterators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders, though, aren't the answer. You really need something like a Chosen squad full of Plasma Guns rapid firing or a couple Lascannon Predators or a unit of Havocs. But, failing that, swamp him with Lesser Daemons. They're cheap, invulnerable and expendable.

Bloodcrushers
The second pillar in the Khorne altar of blood are the Blood Crushers. These are multi-wound super-Bloodletters who are durable and choppy. They are everything a Bloodletter is and more. The worst part is that they have several wounds so it's very hard to bring them down in shooting. The best part is that the models look great, so it's not completely appalling as you die.

Counter with: Lesser Daemons. Swamp the Bloodcrushers with a wall of expendables then counter-charge with Terminators, Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince. These guys can deal out enough damage to kill 1-2 Bloodcrushers in a turn. If you can force them to take Fearless saves, you might be able to mop the unit up in a turn or two. Don't, however, let them charge you. They will easily bowl over almost anything they charge.

Bloodletters
The third and worst pillar of Khorne are the Bloodletters. While the Bloodthirster is the epitome of death and destruction and is nearly unstoppable - you'll only be facing one. While Bloodcrushers are durable and dangerous, they are expensive - so you will probably only ever face one unit. However, Bloodletters are cheap and deadly on the charge. This means that you will be facing one or more squads of 10+ models. That is a handful for any player.

Counter with: Dreadnaughts and flamers. Flamers (or Winds of Chaos) allow you to place wounds on a large number of models. Remember that volume fire is key with Daemons. So a unit with 1-2 flamers can mop up a squad of Bloodletters between templates and rapid-firing. Also, Dreadnaughts are completely impervious to Bloodletters and can wear down a unit in just a few turns through close combat and Fearless saves.

Undivided
The only truly Undivided model I've faced has been the Soulgrinder. Furies are out there, but I've never seen anyone actually use them.

Soulgrinder
Soulgrinders are hulking behemoths of Daemon-infused metal. They are more durable than our Dreadnaughts and Defilers and sport a huge array of deadly ranged weaponry. It is safe to say that Soulgrinders are the artillery of the Daemon force. Tongue offers an amazing anti-tank or anti-character weapon. Phlegm is an anti-MEQ wonder...though Plague Marines will still retain Feel No Pain. Vomit is an anti-infantry attack for swarms. The Harvester is an anti-infantry volume attack that allows (when combined with something like Phlegm) a Soulgrinder to eliminate an entire unit of troops in a single shooting phase. If this wasn't bad enough, the Soulgrinder can also hold its own in close combat. With Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapons, the Soulgrinder has a low Initiative and Weapon Skill but a Strength and anti-armor ability that is nothing to scoff at.

Counter with: Dreadnaughts, Daemon Princes, and Greater Daemons. Shooting a Soul Grinder can be tricky because of its decent armor value. If you can lock it in close combat, though, you can neutralize its formidable shooting capacity. Dreadnaughts or MC's are good choices because they'll strike force and get bonus armor penetration dice. Typically, they can bring a Soulgrinder down before it can even strike.

My Nurgle Army
I play a pretty standardized list that is universal for all of my opponents. Hopefully, my choices and explanations will give you some insight or what to do and what not to do against Daemons.

Typhus
Overall, this guy is a beast. He is extremely durable and deadly. His Manreaper is worthless, however, against Daemons with the exceptions of its bonus attacks and poisoned status. In every game, he has died against Daemons. But he typically takes at least a few down with him. His ability to throw out a Winds of Chaos, coupled with a shooty unit, is probably a better option than relying on his formidable close combat capacity. Oh, and never, ever charge a Bloodthirster with Typhus...it's not pretty.

Recommended: 3 of 5

Daemon Prince
I'm currently running a Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings and Warptime. It has worked fairly well. He becomes a mobile, counter-assault unit who can drop a number of enemies in a turn. Warptime maximizes his ability to kill lots of enemies and the Mark of Nurgle means that even Bloodletters have a hard time wounding him. The real beauty is when he charges a unit of Daemonettes and makes a mess out of them. He also makes a decent counter-weight to enemy heavies like Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons and Soulgrinders.

Recommended: 5 of 5

Greater Daemon
What isn't to love here? This is a big, mean, choppy model that can pop out and assault all at the same time. Albeit, our Greater Daemons aren't on par with Daemon Greater Daemons, but the surprise assault is typically worth the trade off. Besides, Greater Daemons are beasts in combat. But it does require a plan. Plan on stuffing a champion right into the thick of the enemy. Try to keep him alive until the Greater Daemon manifests then let all hell break lose. For added fun, sprinkle in a helping of Lesser Daemons to add to the Chaos.

Recommended: 5 of 5

Dreadnaught
While Dreadnaughts typically get a bad wrap, I've had decent success with mine. Equip them for close combat: 2 Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapons, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor. That's relatively cheap for a model with 5 S10 Power Weapon attacks on the charge. He will be able to chew through any of the Daemon Troops choices without fear for his own well-being. You'll minimize the Crazed results by stuffing him in close combat early and keeping him there. And he can even counter enemy heavies with decent success. However, don't expect this trick to work too many times with a savvy opponent. After one or two games worth of Dreadnaught stompiness, the Bolts of Tzeentch will usually be aimed in his direction early on.

Recommended: 4 of 5

Terminators
Terminators are, indeed, a double edged sword. Marked Terminators are expensive. There is a fine line with equipping Terminators to be effective and equipping them to the point of wasteful. In my opinion, if your average Terminator points cost for a squad exceeds 55 points each, you are being wasteful. This is a concern to all Chaos Marines players but especially when facing Daemons. Your Power Weapons are of little value. Anything Khorne and a smattering of other Daemons will ignore your precious Terminator Armor. However, your inherent Invulnerable Saves are worth their weight in gold and Terminators can sport some decent volume attacks (not to mention being able to Rapid Fire and charge).

Recommended: 3 of 5

Plague Marines
Plague Marines, for me, are the core, the atrophied heart of my army. However, against, Daemons, they are largely worthless. Against foes like Daemonettes and Horrors, Plague Marines shine. However, against the more vicious Khorne forces, my Plague Marines die by the boatload. I suppose if I tweaked them out with Flamers and Combi-Flamers, I would be better off. But I prefer to keep my generic loadouts.

Recommended: 3 of 5

Lesser Daemons
Fight fire with fire, that's my motto. :P In truth, Lesser Daemons excel against Daemons because they are cheap, invulnerable and expendable. You aren't using up precious slots to field them. They cost much less than cult troops and they have nifty saves that let them stand up to even Bloodletters decently.

Recommended: 4 of 5

Obliterators
The versatility and durability of Obliterators can really shine against Daemons. Because they're capable of a number of different specialty attacks, Obliterators are the jack-of-all trades of our force against Daemons. Their ability to Deep Strike where needed then unleash a salvo into the enemy should not be overlooked either.

Recommended: 5 of 5

Land Raider
While the weapons loadout of the Land Raider doesn't suit an anti-Daemon strategy well. However, it's armor and transport abilities make up for its weapon lack. Daemons are hard pressed to kill a Land Raider and, often, require specialized units to do so. These units sap points from the rest of the list and your Land Raider will still be able to take down a few Daemonic bad boys before it goes up in smoke. I find mine most useful for an early game rush to try to seize the initiative of the game. Thusfar, I've only executed it well once. But combined with a load of Deep Striking Lesser Daemons, a Greater Daemon and a few Obliterators, Land Raider rushing an assault with Icon Bearing troops can be effective.

Recommended: 3 of 5

Vindicator
The Vindicator serves as an imposing, intimidating deterrent. A veteran player should understand that it really isn't a huge threat due to its limited mobility and its vulnerability to Weapon Destroyed results. However, its potency shouldn't be underestimated. This weapon still has the potential to make hamburger of most Daemons, especially right after they Deep Strike.

Recommended: 4 of 5

Putting it together
Now that we’ve examined a handful of Chaos Daemon and Chaos Space Marine units and their various strengths and weaknesses, let’s look at some other aspects of the anti-Daemon meta-game.

Cover
One would think that cover is not important to an anti-Daemon strategy. After all, most of their units are close combat specialists and equipped with Offensive Grenades. However, cover offers us the potential for several advantages. Firstly and most obviously, it is a shield against weapons like Warpfire, Bolts of Tzeentch and the many weapons of the Soulgrinder. Secondly, cover offers an impediment to otherwise quick Daemons. Because they can Deep Strike close to you, Daemons often end up in close combat quickly. Effective use of cover can force Daemons to take difficult terrain tests which may leave them flat-footed and vulnerable to another round of fire. Thirdly, cover is a pain to Deep Strike into. By filling gaps between area terrain, you can increase the chances of a Daemon unit Deep Striking into cover and rolling on the Deep Strike Mishap table. No matter what the result here...it will be beneficial to you.

Chess
Think of fighting Daemons like a chess match. For each move, there's a countermove. Develop your own personal strategy around how you counter each of your opponent's models with your own. For example, Thousand Sons are probably a good match for Khorne Bloodcrushers while Raptors are a good match for Horrors. Figure out what units work well for you against specific enemies and match your tactics accordingly.

Phalanx
The best tactic I've found so far is that of the Chaos Space Marine phalanx. Form a solid anchor and let the enemy come to you. Daemons, more or less, must fight on the ground of the enemy's choosing. Use this to your advantage. Deploy on and capture strategic points and defend these points effectively. You may sally forth to make a counterattack or deploy a delaying intervention force, but you will have more rounds of shooting and be able to control more firing lanes if you fight in a phalanx. This also allows your units to easily support one another while keeping the enemy from Deep Striking between your forces. As one player in my shop put it, "you have to deploy spread out together." This means that you deploy your units as close to their 2" deployment maximum as possible within the unit. But that you keep your units close together as a whole army.

Conscience makes cowards of us all
Daemons can be intimidating. But one of the tricks to beating them is to keep your head screwed on straight, stay focused on the objectives, and stay consistent. It's easier to make mistakes with Deep Striking Daemons than it is with static Chaos Space Marines. Pick a strategy and stick to it. Remember that the first few turns will probably go well (or seem to). Stick to your objectives. Don't let fear or confidence effect that. Annihilation? Shoot at troops choices, Soulgrinders, and Monstrous Creatures (in that order). Capture and Control? Control your base and contest theirs. Seize Ground? Shoot up their troops choices early and defend your local objectives...denying them theirs.

Hopefully this has been a decent introduction to a continued discussion of anti-Daemon tactics. As you have seen from my record, I could certainly use the help.
Aureus
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 17:03   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Very cool and insightful article, Aureus Flagged. Yes, one way to defeat them is volume of shots/attacks which luckily for me as a Guard Player is what we have plenty of.

You must also note that Daemons are always Deep-Striking so using a Counter-DS Strategy can be used as well.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 18:22   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aureus
One with the Warp
Daemons never fail psychic tests...ever. This is very frustrating when you're trying to counter them. While CSM's don't have any anti-psyker gear, some armies do. These are worthless. However, this does mean that if you're going to face Daemons, you need to understand that their psychic powers are innate and that you'll be facing a barrage of them every single turn. This also means that Kharn is especially beautiful against Daemons as he's our only real anti-psychic tool.
Good tactica, but I don't quite *get* this.

Daemons don't have any psychic powers. It's all shooting or "wargear." Nothing "anti-psychic" will work against them because none of their stuff is psychic. I don't see why Kharn is particularly special.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 18:41   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenai
Very cool and insightful article, Aureus Flagged.
You must also note that Daemons are always Deep-Striking so using a Counter-DS Strategy can be used as well.
Thanks. I'll try to put some thoughts together on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Circus Carnage
Daemons don't have any psychic powers. It's all shooting or "wargear." Nothing "anti-psychic" will work against them because none of their stuff is psychic. I don't see why Kharn is particularly special.
Thanks for pointing that out. I assumed that they were psychic tests...but I guess I am wrong. It's been removed.
Thanks.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 19:00   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Amazing article! You make me fear daemon lists but at the same time, I want to play them? Wow thank you for taking the time to write this up it has been very helpful to understanding of the new daemon army.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 20:30   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

One thing to note is that lesser deamons are not good against plaguebearers because they do not put out enough to kill them and are weak in return. This is one thing form a game. The thing about the game going well is also so true. Obliterators are also really good. The twin linked plasma gun in rpaid fire rnage can unlesah hell on a deamon prince.
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Old 23 Dec 2008, 01:55   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Daemon players never like to see mechanized armies. Two reasons:

1) They don't have great access to anti-tank choices, and especially long-range anti-tank (soul grinders are pretty much the only good choice for that);

2) You can run (drive/fly) away from them. In cases where you're clearly outmatched in CC (like against khornate daemons) what you can try is using the first turn the daemons arrive to shoot them up a bit, after which you should have the advantage in numbers/KPs, then swallow your pride and jump into your transports and run away from them - leap at the objectives in the last turn or simply deny them KPs.

This works better with a land raider so that you can try to pop their soul grinders or lay some dakka into their squads while you avoid close combat.

Rhinos, of course, are still vulnerable to close combat attacks from many daemons (Bloodletters especially), so you may need to keep them beyond 12" away. I guess havoc launchers wouldn't be bad in this case, but few people use them.
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Old 23 Dec 2008, 02:12   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aureus
Horrors
Horrors fall into that whole worthless category. They come standard with Warpfire...which is about as useful as Lasguns against Plague Marines. To put this in perspective, every Horror firing at a unit of Plague Marines will have less than a 5% chance of killing a Marine. That means that, statistically, you will need 20 Horrors to average one kill. Now, Horrors can also take Bolt of Change, but their lousy BS means that you'll only lose an average of about .4 Marines per shooting phase.
But then remember that you can have a single model with a Bolt of Tzeentch in the Horror squad, and personally,it is a staple in almost all Horror squads. Even if it just means one str 8 shot, but nevertheless it is one that will negate FNP quite quickly. With 20 horrors with two Bolt of Tzeentch, there is a possibility of two death plague marines before the other shots are tabulated. So by right there should be 2-4 plague marines dead per turn from two squad firing at you (if we are just sticking to the 2 squads of 10 horrors)

In addition, if the player do play with Heralds on foot attached to the squad, they will always be able to fire both the Bolt of Tzeentch and/or Daemonic Gaze (it is an Assault 3 Vespid gun) and/or Breath of Chaos (Provided that they are close enough) and thus the whole dynamics can be changed quite quickly as now the death ratio of the plague marines or any MEQ will be increased by a large margin. Heralds of Tzeench shoots like a Marine, and thus they will add a more potent addition to the force as a whole.

From my experiences with daemons (both playing as and against Daemons), I can see two things that makes a difference in Daemon's army building;

1)the prevalence of tough units such as Plague Marines, Nobs wih Painboys, Assault Termies and the likes in games these days,

and

2)Daemon's player's difficulty in holding onto objectives or capturing objectives and somewhat aggressive units (close combat or short-ranged shooting)

With this in mind, the Daemon player would have to play an aggressive and also brutal kind of battle, and instead aim to destroy the enemy scoring units in order to gain an advantage whe fighting other armies and in a sense, is akin to Dark Eldar, as the first few rounds really decides whether or not the Daemon player will be on the winning or losing side. One of the ways to gain this advantage is to basically shoot the enemy scoring units to oblivion with overwhelming firepower (which the horrors do admirably), or, thanks to the 5th ed rules, going headlong into the frays of close combat and eliminate the unit fast and hard. Thus in order to get the best of both worlds Dameon players will always have a tank unit that can and will break the enemy lines, which ranges from Bloodcrushers to Flamers or units that will compliment each other that will be able to wipe out an entire squad one phase at a time.Thus, when it comes to playing Daemons, it is basically killing enough to render the opponent's army useless.

My list is a mono-tzeentch list and I generally try to ignore as much of the opponent's advantage to me, whether they are mechanized or infantry-heavy so that I will not be so troubled by enemy units when they do cause my army inconveniences, and it aims to destroy any incoming unit or scoring units. Without further ado, here is my entire 2k list;

Kairos Fateweaver
2 Heralds of Tzeentch on Chariots with Bolt of Tzeentch,Daemonic Gaze We are Legion, Master of Sorcery
3 squads of 3 Flamers of Tzeentch
3 Squads of 11 Horrors, each squad armed with a Bolt of Tzeentch and a single squad with the Changeling upgrade
3 Soulgrinders with phlegm

You can see that my list is filled with a prodigious amount of shots, lots of anti-tank, and also lots of thing that will ignore armour saves straight-on from units that are bunnkering down on their objectives. Kairos supplements the list by just making my units more survivable, and also lending more shots, anti-tank, and armour-ignoring shots into the list (since it can fire three weapons at once, thanks to its MC status and also Master or Sorcery rule).

The Soulgrinders acts as an area-denial platform, and also anti-infantry that can be used against horde armies or MEQ armies in addition to supporting my units in close combat whenever the need arises. With its Phlegm it can also act as a somewhat decent anti-tank platform as well, due to the strength of the blast template.

So whether it is a small elite, army, or a horde army this Daemon list is there to take them all. But of course, I would like to take out some units and compliment them with Khornate units to further make this army more potent in close combat and to tie down opposing shooting units that can negate my unit's firepower.

Excellent insight! +1 Karma - Anton
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Old 23 Dec 2008, 03:14   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos within Chaos: Combating Daemons

Great reply, C_V. Excellent feedback. Flagged. I'll reply to just a couple points. But remind me never to play against your mono-Tzeentch Daemons. Your list makes me glad that noone here has played that yet.

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Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
But then remember that you can have a single model with a Bolt of Tzeentch in the Horror squad, and personally,it is a staple in almost all Horror squads. Even if it just means one str 8 shot, but nevertheless it is one that will negate FNP quite quickly. With 20 horrors with two Bolt of Tzeentch, there is a possibility of two death plague marines before the other shots are tabulated. So by right there should be 2-4 plague marines dead per turn from two squad firing at you (if we are just sticking to the 2 squads of 10 horrors)
Certainly, I'm not trying to marginalize Horrors. Every unit I've every faced has had a Bolt of Tzeentch in it. However, if we're talking about a unit of 10 models that is going to average 1.17 kills per turn (.75 from 9 models with Warpfire, .42 from BoT), I can handle that. A unit of 10 Bloodletters on the charge will typically kill 7.5 Plague Marines. For me that's a whole unit. So if I'd chose a Troops choice to face off against, it would be Horrors. Now...for the rest of the Tzeentch army list...I'd rather not even think about it. Being outshot by Daemons is a very scary prospect.

Quote:
Without further ado, here is my entire 2k list;

Kairos Fateweaver
2 Heralds of Tzeentch on Chariots with Bolt of Tzeentch,Daemonic Gaze We are Legion, Master of Sorcery
3 squads of 3 Flamers of Tzeentch
3 Squads of 11 Horrors, each squad armed with a Bolt of Tzeentch and a single squad with the Changeling upgrade
3 Soulgrinders with phlegm
See, this type of list would absolutely decimate my force piecemeal. However it wouldn't be the Horrors that would scare me. The Soulgrinders, Flamers, and Fateweaver would be enough to table my low model count force.
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