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Cheddar Redux
Old 11 Dec 2008, 17:36   #1 (permalink)
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Default Cheddar Redux

Short form - I have been trying to build a Cheesy Space Marine army for a challenge match against my Chaos playing friend. After some suggestions from the SM players I showed him my proposed list. However, he doesn’t think my list is cheesy enough to challenge him. He was pretty confident he will wipe the floor with it. So I come to you, the traitor legions, for an appraisal of his/my strengths and weaknesses from a Chaosy perspective.

First post from SM board:
I have been challenged by a friend of mine to a cheese on cheese match; he wants to test his Chaos list against the hardest marine list that can be built. The game is supposed to be 2,000 pts and he will be using a pretty standard power-gaming Chaos list: 2 Lash Princes, Greater Daemon, Oblits, Plague Marines, Berserkers, Raptors, Vindicator and Defiler. Now I haven’t been playing Marines that long so I thought I would ask you guys what you suggest to beat this list? Just some ideas from more experienced Marine players to steer me in the right direction.

PS: Please, no "powergamers suck" responses - we just thought it would be fun to try a clash of broken armies.
The list I showed him:
HQ #1 190
Vulkan He’stan

Troop #1 196
Tactical Squad – 9 Space Marines [Multi-melta, Flamer], 1 Sergeant [Combi-melta, Power weapon] with Razorback [TL Heavy Flamer]

Troop #2 206
Tactical Squad – 9 Space Marines [Multi-melta, Flamer], 1 Sergeant [Combi-melta, Power weapon] with Razorback [TL Lascannon]

Troop #3 206
Tactical Squad – 9 Space Marines [Multi-melta, Flamer], 1 Sergeant [Combi-melta, Power weapon] with Razorback [TL Lascannon]

Troop #4 206
Tactical Squad – 9 Space Marines [Multi-melta, Flamer], 1 Sergeant [Combi-melta, Power weapon] with Razorback [TL Lascannon]

Elite #1 190
Ironclad Dreadnought – Heavy Flamer, with Drop Pod [Locator Beacon]

Elite #2 200
Terminator Assault Squad – Sergeant [Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield], Terminators [4x Thunder Hammer, 4x Storm Shield]

Elite #3 200
Terminator Assault Squad – Sergeant [Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield], Terminators [4x Thunder Hammer, 4x Storm Shield]

Heavy Support #1 225
Devastator Squad – 4 Space marines [4x Multi-melta], Sergeant with Razorback [TL Lascannon]

Heavy Support #2 180
Devastator Squad – 4 Space marines [2x Missile Launcher, Plasmacannon, Lascannon], Sergeant

Link to the SM Topic if you want to see what the SM players said.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Dec 2008, 20:42   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cheddar Redux

That list is ridiculously powerful, flamers in large numbers are good enough to begin with but with Vulkan I think Horus himself would be scared. Land the dread first turn and try to pop either his Defiler/Vindicator. Get those intimidating pie plates off the table ASAP.

If you can shoot him to death, you will definitely come out ahead. HOWEVER, if he gets into combat you're going to have a much harder time. You need to be able to balance these things well, and not let him get close enough to you. Use the Razorbacks as mobile blockades to prevent him from getting too close.

I think your list is solid as of now, very strong. However, he can still win if you play poorly/he plays well. Combat will be your downfall, but your shooting should be more than enough to scare him.
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Old 12 Dec 2008, 03:18   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cheddar Redux

I think you have a strong list, but unfortunately for you, I don't think loyalists can put together anything as cheesy as 2 Lashes + blast template spam + plague marines + berzerkers.

You might need to make a list designed to take out his particular list.

That means you may want a librarian in there for the psychic hood.

I would also consider rethinking the assault terminator squads so that they have a better means of delivery that deep striking. Like a Land Raider, or infiltration (Shrike), or outflanking (Khan). As they are now, they'll take a serious hit when they land.

I would be willing to drop the multi-melta devastators for some points to spend elsewhere.

In fact, I don't think multi-meltas are a great choice in your tactical squads either when combined with the razorbacks... I would consider some longer range heavy weapons that can help take out the defiler and vindicator ASAP. The razorbacks' heavy bolters could be good for putting the hurt on the Daemon Princes... but I would take the strategy of trying to either eliminate the DPs OR the blast template units rather than trying to hurt both at the same time. Neither is a particularly easy prospect, the combination is bound to do some serious damage to you before you take them out, but generally I would try to go for the Princes first.
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Old 12 Dec 2008, 14:03   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cheddar Redux

Well the reason for so many multi-meltas in the list is because Vulkan's ability makes them twin-linked as long as he's on the board. Which is also the reason the termies are carrying Thunder hammers - Vulkan makes them master crafted. My original list had Land Raiders in it to deliver the termies but I dropped them for the extra firepower.

The thought with this list was to drop the Ironclad near his Defiler then telport the termies into the backfield to hunt his Oblits and Plague Marines. The Razorbacks' job is to concentrate fire on his Vindicator and then the Princes when the Vindi was dead. Everthing else was to poor on fire at the closest target of opportunity as they approach.

My thought was that if he can't concentrate everything on rushing my line (because of the Ironclad and Termies) then I could pick apart enough of his Berserkers and Raptors to handle them when they hit the line.
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Old 13 Dec 2008, 15:15   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cheddar Redux

Chances are, that his oblits will drop down behind your razorbacks and fry them, I do like you list though, it would make any chaos god tremble, just as Chimerical said a librarian could do wonders. I think you may have a chance, good luck.

PS: deal with the vindicator a **** fast as you can, before your termies deepstrike.
"They shall be my finest Cannon Fodder, these men who give themselves to me. Like clay I will mold them and in the furnace of war they will become cracked and broken. They will be of tissue paper and whimpy muscle. In tissue paper armor I clad them and with the mightiest flashlights they will be armed. They will be touched by every sort of plauge or disease to help further make them unhappy, all sickness will blight them. They will have almost no tactics, strategies, but lots of machines so that they can atleast stand up to a foe in battle. They are my tar pit against the Terror. They are the bulk of Humanity. They are my Imperial Guard and they will know much fear!"

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- Attributed to Leman Russ

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Typhon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14 Dec 2008, 00:39   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cheddar Redux

If he is bringing Raptors he aint trying hard enough.
DemonicSarge55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 Dec 2008, 16:48   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cheddar Redux

I thought razorbacks can only carry 6 or less ?

anyway cheeze for me would be ordinance plates and lots of CC rolls in close combat.

it seems that your list is gearing towards a shooty SM list, and shooty is not that good in 5th edition where 4+ cover saves are almost free More than Firepower, the key to 5th ed is Assault.

i would suggest to field :
3 vindicators (str 10 hard to ignore)
3 LR redeemers or Crusaders equipped with Assault Terminator with Thunder Hammer & Shields with Chaplains
Drop Pods with Dreadnoughts

1st turn move max and pop smoke
2nd turn unleash hell ! >
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