[dave_1972]

Disclaimer: I am not the most experienced 40K gamer but I am giving this a shot as I see a need for this kind of article since the latest Codex. Please post any corrections or just points you think I have missed and I’ll add them to the article.

First a little explanation: The point of this article is to compare the benefits/drawbacks when choosing between an Icon of a particular Chaos god or using their cult troops in your army. I will be focusing mostly on troop selections but may venture into other areas as needed. Also, I will not talk about full points cost but rather the difference in the cost for cult marines against regular marines. I’ll do that against a 20 man squad, a 10 man squad, and their sacred number. Remember that with any squad you would also be adding point for champions and additional weapons.

Icons are available for Chosen, Terminators, Possessed, Marines, Bikers, Raptors, and Havocs. There are five Icons available: Chaos Glory, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne. The benefits are as follows:

Chaos Glory: morale re-roll.
Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Tzeentch: +1 Invulnerable save and an extra psychic power for psychers.
Slaanesh: +1 Initiative
Khorne: +1 Attack

Who are the cult marines and why are they so cool? They are the dedicated specialists of each god and have the following benefits:

Nurgle: The Plague Marines. These guys get +1 Toughness (but they lose a point of initiative), Blight Grenades, Fearless, and Feel No Pain. These guys are designed to sit on an objective and frustrate your opponent by surviving almost anything he can throw at them. They cost 8 more points then a marine.

Tzeentch: The Thousand sons. These guys get +4 Invulnerable, Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, AP3 Bolters, and a Sorcerer they are required to take who gets to take one psychic power (limited to generic and Tzeentch powers) and a Force Weapon. These guys are designed to mow down anyone with a +3 save or worse. They cost 8 more points then a marine, but you still have to buy your psychic power.

Slaanesh: The Noise Marines. They get +1 Initiative, Fearless, and access to some very nice sonic weaponry. These guys are designed for a couple of things… they can make drive-bys from Rhinos, sit back and pound your opponent with a nasty template, or function as arguably the best assault unit in the codex. They cost 5 more points then a marine, before you add on all those great weapons.

Khorne: The Khorne Berzerkers: They get +1 weapon skill, an extra attack, Fearless, give up their Boltgun, and replace it with furious Charge. These guys are supposed to be the best assault unit in the codex and maybe they are, we’ll see. They cost 6 more points then a Marine.

So, what do you get for your money and how do they compare with an Icon?

Plague Marines:
7 man (6 points less)
10 man (30 points more)
20 man (110 points more)
Feel no Pain (FnP) is the standout here… for eight measly points I get to ignore half of the armor saves I fail, forget about morale checks, lose those pesky additional attacks when receiving a charge, and I am tougher to wound? Sign me up right? Well, let’s think about this. FnP only works when I get to take a save… and thanks to a billion marine players every army you face will carry plenty of units that deny you an armor save. Yes, you will take less attacks when receiving a charge… but any of your guys who die will often die without getting to attack at all and that includes when you charge.
So what about their role on the battlefield? Well, they will be harder to remove from an objective than any other unit in our codex. Especially if they have cover. But they also lose access to any heavy weapons. So they could spend turn after turn with their thumbs in their … ears, while all the real action happens just out of their range. They may win you the game, but it won’t be exciting.
So what else in our codex can fill this role? Well just about everyone, it’s a pretty generic role to fill. Regular marines biggest benefit will be their access to heavy weaponry giving you the opportunity to blast away at your opponent while they babysit that marker and their better Initiative will help them as well. Chosen can fill this role and with Infiltrate they may be able to reach those hard to acquire objectives… but their points cost gets perilously close to a plague marine, the same goes for possessed who are better utilized in an offensive role as their daemonkin result will almost always give them a result better used in going on the offensive. The same goes for bikes and terminators in my opinion as they are far too many points to tie up on an objective the entire game. Havocs I believe should be firing every single turn of the game, not running around the table securing objectives but if the objective is in your deployments zone… sure go ahead, but personally I would never give Havocs any Icon other than Chaos Glory or maybe Tzeentch. Which just leaves Raptors who are probably better served chasing your opponent around the table with their jump packs anyway.
If you are hell-bent on having units whose only job is to take and hold an objective then I would recommend these guys but never in numbers beyond the sacred as the cost skyrockets and you will be severely short-handed. Playing CSM you are always outnumbered but with Nurgle and especially Plague Marines you will be really outnumbered.

Thousand Sons
9 man (59 points more + psychic power)
10 man (77 points more + psychic power)
20 man (157 points more + psychic power)
Their firepower sets them apart with their AP3 bolters, the great invulnerable save, the ability to move and shoot makes them far more effective (although a Rhino is better), the psychic power and force weapon. But remember that they give up the extra attack for a close combat weapon in assault and if they lose the sorcerer they get even more slow and purposeful when they roll just one die to move.
Let’s start by saying the point comparison is weighted by the cost of the sorcerer so it is a bit tough to compare them that way. And when considering dedicated shooting units I suspect most people will opt for the Icon of Chaos Glory and a cover save rather than Tzeentch.
I generally favor stationary shooting troops and your opponent may find it easy to avoid your weapon’s range with these guys, but when he can’t he will pay for it. Remember that while you have the coveted AP3 you are still just strength 4 and may struggle against high toughness. So what we have is a squad of marine killers with decent weapon range, riding in a tin can or foot slogging it and ignoring half of all wounds thrown their way. If you want a mobile, high volume shooting unit then they have some competition.
So who do we compare them with? Against horde armies with low armor saves you would be just as well to use regular marines, but against Marine Equivalent (MEQ) they are hands down the best choice. The closest thing would be a squad of Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters or a squad of Chosen, loaded with five plasma guns. Ten chosen with five plasma guns will cost ten points more then the equivalent Thousand Sons even before you add a champion or an Icon of any kind. Drop that to five Chosen with five plasma guns and you are running a far less expensive unit pumping out 8 strength 7 shots at a lower AP to boot, the CSM version of a suicide squad if I ever saw it. But with a Force Weapon, more shots, survivability, Fearless, and a Sorcerer thrown in I would still carry the Sons if I want a mobile fire unit. Save the Chosen for Meltaguns and tank hunting. As for the Noise Marines…

Noise Mariness
6 man (10 points more)
10 man (30 points more)
20 man (80 points more)

What makes the Noise Marines so special? Why, noise of course! Don’t look at this as paying 5 points per model for better initiative and Fearless, you are really paying for access to Sonic Weaponry. What are they?

Blast Master – can be used as a two shot heavy bolter with an assault profile or it can be used as a strength 8, AP3 blast template of O’Klkn. Probably my favorite weapon even if it is a little pricey.
Sonic Blaster – A boltgun with an assault profile or an extra shot.
Doom Siren – an upgrade for your champ, this bad boy is a heavy flamer with AP3.

What role do they fill? All of them. Don’t believe me? Think about this… six guys with five sonic blasters and a champ with a fist or power weapon and a doom siren… and whoever is alive after all that shooting gets charged by six marines at initiative five. Ugly, very ugly. Someone should work out the percentages for these guys against the same number of Zerkers on the charge. I bet the Zerkers come out ahead but not by much. Wanna do drive-bys? Ok, take those sonic blasters and a Blastmaster and go for a ride. Want to sit back and lob pie plates (that pin) at your opponent while giggling uncontrollably… well maybe that is just me.
But we’re here for comparisons so I digress. Comparisons well, that isn’t easy because of how well rounded these guys are… Zerkers are better in assault, Son’s are better at drive-by’s, Plague’s are better at holding an objective… the real strength of these guys is they can easily be tailored to whatever role you need. Having said all of that, the Icon of Slaanesh is a great value for your regular marine squads if you are tailoring them for assault and want to keep the points down, and it is even better with Chosen where, combined with power weapons, can make a nasty retinue for your HQ.

Khorne Berzerkers:
8 man (18 points more)
10 man (30 points more)
20 man (90 points more)

And now to the madmen of Chaos, the Zerkers. Fearless, Furious charge, a point of weapon skill, and even an extra attack to wash it all down. What’s not to like? Nothing, absolutely nothing. The cost of the Icon of Khorne really ends the discussion for me. Even in a ten man squad you are within 3 points per model and that is too close not to take the Zerkers for me. Compare them to any other assault units? The only reason I can see to give another unit the Icon rather then take the Zerkers would be movement. Put the Icon on some Raptors or Bikes and do some Van-damage… at higher points cost. As for Possessed, they start out five points more then a Zerker and you can’t be sure what you are going to get. Get scouts and you may have wasted all those points, any other result though and I think they give the Zerkers a run for their money as the best dedicated assault unit in the Codex.

Conclusion:
A few things jump out at me.
First, the larger the squad the more the points are in favor of taking the Icon. The real value of the Cult Marines to me is when you strive for the favor of their respective gods. In small squads or around their sacred number they are a steal I think, and should almost always be taken over the Icon. Combine that with 5th Edition's reliance upon troops to claim objectives and I think you will see less 10+ man squads and that just favors the Cult marines even more.
Second, Fearless is utterly invaluable in 5th Edition. Only troops can score objectives and troops are scoring to the last man, so Fearless is your best friend. This is so important in fact that I would almost always choose the Icon of Chaos Glory over any other for my regular Marines.
Third, if you know what you want to do with a squad-then why not take the Cult Marines? I look at it this way… if I am going to give one of the God Icons to a squad then I must have a clear vision of what that squad is going to do. If your unit’s role is going to be that defined then I think you might as well take the Cult Marines who will invariably excel in that role.
Fourth, weapons and movement demand choices. The one thing that could drive you to take regular Marines or other units with an Icon over the Cult Marines is if you want the movement of Raptors/Bikers/Infiltrate or if you want a heavy weapon in the squad. Personally, I’d rather get my heavy weapons from a Heavy choice or a Blastmaster. And with Havocs I would rather have the Icon of Chaos Glory to keep them on the table.

* A note about Termies. They are great with any Icon, and if you have the points to spend- go for it. Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh and a Heavy flamer for assault oriented or maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle if you are looking for the shooty variety. Combine that with the proper combi-weapon and they are nasty… but with an Icon will cost you twice what a cult marine will most likely cost.

Nice article Dave. +1 Karma - Anton.

[razgriz_cipher]

I also noticed that squads with icons are better for larger squads. Glory is only really an icon that maybe should be for small squads or units inside a rhino. Cult marines are usually great in rhinos if you want to go god specific. The thing about being fearless that is the probelm is combat resolution if you get owned. Yet it is hard to do this with everyone save thousand sons with more than one attack ususly. Fearless is still really good against shooty enemies.
edit also icons bearers cna now die to wound allocation. The thing about icons is you could get a giant nurgle havoc squad with 4 heavy bolters I thought of a while ago. It would be really hard to stop dakka. Although it has a huge prie tag.

[Ace cipher zer0]

Well, I must say, everybody is just hating on the regular marines right now. I've seen Article after article proclaiming the advantage of the cult troops, people saying Icons are dead on Buby's wonderful article, and I am just fed up with it.

Sure, the cult troops are better. However, are they really that much better than a properly used squad of regular marines. They are just highly specialized.

First off, the Plague Marines. No longer do they shrug off half their wounds- FNP has been made fair so that AP1 and AP2 shots make it null, as do instant death weapons. In addition, if you have double the marines, then it is even better than having the less-than-half wound prevention. Furthermore, they suffer from lack of long-ranged high-killing power- where regular marines could take a plasma gun or any of the heavy weapons, the Plague can only take a meltagun.

Furthermore, the role of regular CSMs as objective hjolders with the Icon gain the added advantage of having Long-Ranged Firepower. The strategem follows these lines: the marines get to an objective very close to one of your deployment zones. then, for the nexyt 5 turns of the game, they use the ML to take out any tanks that get close. So, instead of just sitting there as plague marines would have to, the CSMs can actively participate by threatening enemy vehicles at long range, and supporting your troops.

Next, 1K Sons. Really, having slow and purposeful is not too great of an advantage, unless you put them in a rhino. However, one must note that Rhinos are extremely fragile for vehicles with their AV 11. Several Heavy Bolters could glance it to death (or make it inneffective, which is even better). So when your rhino is destroyed or disabled, it is back to that slow footslogging.

IMO, where they really shine is when you do take them, and place them right in front of your enemy's dedicated anti-MEq units. That way, they get their 4+ invul save if they are fired at, and your marines get a 4+ invul save if they are fired at. This role can also be fulfilled by regular marines with the MoT, but they are not as effective, unless you use a large unti (in which case, they can afford to have quite a few casualties and still be a threat, and are also more dangerous if assaulted). They also are useful as a Sorrceror delivery platform, which the regular marines cannot do.

And on to Noise Marines. Their sonic weaponry is outstanding, I agree. However, it may just be as effective not as a drive-by unit, as the Rhino is very fragile, but as a unit that you put in cover, near an bjective, and fire with at an approaching enemy. When that enemy gets close, charge them. This allows you to use the superior heavy function of the blastmaster (which may crack open, say, a rhino, and let the rest of your children fire at the marines that spill out (yes, that is legal in 5th)), and if you are taken by a fast enemy, say a squad of assault marines, then you have the added protection of being in cover, as they cannot shoot their anti-MEq weapons at you (such as if the assault squad has Plasma Pistols) with such effectiveness. In addition, they are better as anti-MEq assault units, as that is when the extra initiative really kicks in.

However, even though they cannot do drive-bys, they could do a drive-in horror flick for your enemy's viewing convenience. You can put the noise marines in a Land Raider, and kill them based on how far away they are. THe basic thing is this: you drive up the Land Raider within 6" of the enemy, and unload. Then you fire all your weapons at the squad you are going to assault (both LR and Sonics) and then assault them. If the squad is more than 12" away, Use your smoke launchers unless you are already in a good enough cover to be concealed or used tehm already.

As to the Khorne marines, They are very good units for assaults. Their only drawback is that they are very horrible at taking objectives. However, they can do the same drive-in Horror flick, except thos one, instead of being sick and twisted and slaaneshi, is just a 2 hour violent movie.

In conclusion, The plague marines can be beaten by Regular marines in large numbers with MoN if there is to be a long-ranged firefight, and also are equal in CC, with the Blight Grenades equalising the -1 Initiative. The Marines with the MoT can be just as good if deployed in a horde; however, they lack a sorceror to cast all kinds of nasty little spells. The Marines with MoS are slightly worse than Noise Marines, due to the lack of Fearless and the ability to take that nasty little doom siren. The Berserkers are better than marines with MoK at assaulting, but are worse at holding objectives.

Nice job dude, you did a good job, and will only get better with experience.

Excellent posting! +1 Karma - Anton.

[razgriz_cipher]

Also another advantage of noise marines is the ability to march across the board to an objective firing all the way. And once they reach the designated objective they have enough firepower to kill most infantry units that are near it. The thing is though that noise marines are not really resilient for their cost. Thing is with havocs glory is really good to get them in that it is cheap. For heavy weapon ones you do not want khorne or slaanessh though. Nurgle bikers are annoying and tough eventhough they are few in number. 5 to 6 is a big step. It makes bolters wound on 6s instead of 5s which really helps.

[sionnach19]

Hm, can't believe I missed this article the first time around! nice job, Dave well written. Just in time, I'm looking at building up some more Icon Bearers for my chaos army as well.

Expanding on what Cipher said, I do agree that cult troops aren't always what they're cracked up to be. I love the basic CSM, and can always rely on it to perform a role I need it to at a very reasonable cost. However, one of my favorite reasons for them is wound allocation. Fearless units can take an excessive amount of wounds if combat goes poorly for you depending on wound allocation. If you deal with this on units like 1k Sons, who aren't meant for combat, your whole unit could be wiped out very quickly. Therefore, a cheap Icon of Chaos Glory gives me nice units that I can count on to stick in a combat if I need them to without taking unecessary wounds.

Once again, great article Dave!

[dave_1972]

Thanks for the notes on all that guys. I think what it boils down to for me is this:

If I know I want a unit for a specific task, and it's a task that a cult troops excels at, and that I don't want a squad larger than ten models. Then I am inclined to take the Cult troops. If I want a more flexible unit, and I know I am going with a ten man squad, then I would lean toward the heavy weapon options of a normal CSM squad.

It's funny to me that if you want to follow the fluff and stay at your god's sacred number... then the points really start to favor the Cult troops.

As for taking extra wounds when losing combat... remember that you will get your armor save against the "No Retreat" wounds also.

[Ace cipher zer0]

Originally Posted by dave_1972

As for taking extra wounds when losing combat... remember that you will get your armor save against the "No Retreat" wounds also.

It is still the wounds though.

Also, there are some roles that some units of CSMs, even cult troops, cannot fulfil, such as if you have a giant wall of some sort.

[Sardis Varrn]

Originally Posted by Dark Ace Cipher

Furthermore, they suffer from lack of long-ranged high-killing power- where regular marines could take a plasma gun or any of the heavy weapons, the Plague can only take a meltagun.

I am a little confused by this comment. Am I missing something or are you trying to say that PM units can only take 1 special weapon and only have the option of meltaguns? PM's may not be great at long ranged shooting but giving them 2x plasma guns (remember PM's can take 2x special weapons no matter what the squad size unlike CSM's) gives them some ability in this area. What they do excel in though is close range firefights and holding objectives. If your objective is a piece of terrain your opponents will find it extremely difficult to dislodge them. A combination of T5, 3+ save, FNP and a cover save will mean that trying to shoot them off the objective will tie up a hell of a lot of firepower, leaving the rest of the army relatively unmolested. What about assaulting them, well the T5, 3+ save and FNP will still cause serious problems (unless the assaulting unit has a lot of power weapons or is a MC etc) but PM's also have blight grenades which will blunt most assaults (these can stop a lot of your opponents attacks especially if he's using a horde list)! As for close range fire fights just go mech, a squad of PM's in a rhino can put out some nasty firepower (I use squads of 8 in bare rhino's usually equipped with 2x plasma guns and a champ with a fist). Driving up jumping out and putting 12 bolter rounds and 4 plasma into a unit can cause some nice damage (you shouldn't lose any to overheats thanks to FNP), and using the rhino to block off the worst return fire will mean that your opponent has to choose between entering into a firefight or assaulting you (he's in trouble either way). I don't dislike standard CSM's but unless you intend on taking massive units (so no mech) the icon of nurgle is a waste, you would be better off either paying a few more points and taking the superior PM's or investing in another icon. In most circumstances I find that the icon of chaos glory is the best one, it doesn't have any of the fancy stat or save increases but is cheap and allows you to spend your points on more marines as well as making sure they don't run away. I prefer to have two units of 10 with the icon of chaos glory than one huge unit of 20 with one of the other icons, as they can pack more firepower and are more flexable.

edit- Nice article Dave

[Farseer_Emlyn]

Originally Posted by Sardis Varrn

I am a little confused by this comment. Am I missing something or are you trying to say that PM units can only take 1 special weapon and only have the option of meltaguns? PM's may not be great at long ranged shooting but giving them 2x plasma guns (remember PM's can take 2x special weapons no matter what the squad size unlike CSM's) gives them some ability in this area. What they do excel in though is close range firefights and holding objectives.

I think that DAC's point was that Plague Marines can't take weapons like Lascannons, Plasmacannons and the like. So that counts as a disadvantage. Otherwise, your comments on Plague Marines are decent.

My experience (most recently last night) is that Plague Marines are nearly indestructible minus those weapons that negate Feel No Pain (as they also negate armor saves). This can be very painful for us as a 7 Plague Marine squad can easily run 210+ points and can get trounced by just about anything wielding power weapons or AP1/2 shooting weapons.

Plague Marines are indeed medium range wonders. They really excel against enemy non-elites. That is to say that pitting them against Tactical Marines, Ork Boyz, or other troop choices is probably the best. You obviously don't want to pit them against Elite choices like Howling Banshees, Terminators and the like. Plague Marines also tend to fair poorly against vehicles. You can go the melta-route, but you lose out when it comes to utilizing their ability to dump out plasma shots. In my opinion, 2 Plasma guns and a Combi-Plasma are the way to go.

Now, to Icons. I'm becoming religiously opposed to them. :P Honestly, for the points, you really aren't ever getting your money's worth. I'd say that the Icon of Chaos Glory is probably the best choice - especially considering the new Assault Morale rules. For regular Chaos Marines - go Chaos Glory.

For Terminators, any Icon works decently...but the price is a bit much. Tzeentch & Nurgle are decent for keeping them alive. Khorne & Slannesh are decent for killing opponents. I've toyed around with Khorne Icons on Champions with Dual Lightning Claws for 6 S4 I4 power weapon attacks on the charge. But I can't seem to justify it points wise. Slannesh might be the best because you can use it to strike early - which can be mean. Tzeentch is probably second because it keeps your Termies alive so much longer.

Overall, I'd say skip the Icons. If you're going themed - grab cultests. But that's just my opinion.

To Dave & DAC, great write ups guys! Excellent dialogue and delivery. Thanks for sharing!
Em

[Sardis Varrn]

Originally Posted by Farseer_Emlyn

Plague Marines are indeed medium range wonders. They really excel against enemy non-elites. That is to say that pitting them against Tactical Marines, Ork Boyz, or other troop choices is probably the best. You obviously don't want to pit them against Elite choices like Howling Banshees, Terminators and the like. Plague Marines also tend to fair poorly against vehicles. You can go the melta-route, but you lose out when it comes to utilizing their ability to dump out plasma shots. In my opinion, 2 Plasma guns and a Combi-Plasma are the way to go.

You would be surprised how well they can perform against elite troops. Yes terminators will take them out in assault but things like banshees aren't that much of a problem. One of my regular opponents likes his banshees but I don't mind getting up close with them. The problem they have is that they don't get their bonus attacks on the charge and that they wound on 6's, so even though they ignore your armour and FNP they do struggle to do enough damage!