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Has abbadon had too many chances?
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Old 29 Jun 2008, 16:10   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Has abbadon had too many chances?

i think he has. In fantasy, if a chaos evershosen fails the gods, he either fies, or get tortured for eternity, as a punishment for failing. I think that abbadon should be got rid off, and a new leader of the chaos forces should arise. failing 13 black crusades is a little too many to get away with in my opinion.
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Old 29 Jun 2008, 18:35   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

This is only my opinion so take it with a measure of salt. I've always believed that the Chaos gods have never wanted to completely conquer the material universe and plunge it into the immaterium, but instead work to keep it in a constant state of galaxy spanning conflict so to better feed off the resulting emotion. Now although Abbadon hasn't been able to conquer or seriously cripple the Imperium, nobody can deny the effectiveness of his black crusades as a destabilizing agent. So again at least in my opinion, he plays a perfectly acceptable role for Chaos in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 29 Jun 2008, 20:43   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattyboy5
I think that abbadon should be got rid off, and a new leader of the chaos forces should arise. failing 13 black crusades is a little too many to get away with in my opinion.
None of the Black Crusades are powerful enough to sweep through the Imperium in a single go, however what many people fail to grasp is that whilst Abaddon's aim is to topple the Imperium, instead he is achieving many small victories instead of gunning for the main victory. Many people misinterpret Abaddon's aim, indeed he and the rest of the Chaos Space Marines want to destroy the Imperium, but even Abaddon knows that such a feat would be impossible. So what does he do instead? He retrieves items, allies or annihilates key locations, which are all building blocks to Abaddon's ultimate aim. One Black Crusade was launched just to retrieve Abaddon's Daemon Sword Drach'nyen, whilst the thirteenth crippled Cadia.

Lots of people assume Abaddon is weak, unworthy, pathetic or just simply rubbish. But he isn't. People seem to forget that whilst it is Abaddon's aim to destroy the Imperium, he is instead slowly increasing the power and potency of each Black Crusade, by retrieving items, forging alliances or annihilating key locations, as I mentioned earlier, there is no way Abaddon could take the Imperium in one fell swoop, at the moment it would be blatant suicide, Abaddon knows this, so instead he is biding his time, allowing his forces to grow stronger and stronger with each passing crusade.

Abaddon is a fantastic character, don't strike him off so easily, he's accomplished much, much more than his WHFB equivalents.
 
Old 29 Jun 2008, 21:13   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

Couldn't have put it better myself :P
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Old 29 Jun 2008, 21:59   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

The 12th Black Crusade, better known as the Gothic War, was the one where he got most of the Blackstone Fortresses.

And I'm surprised you didn't mention this, Anton, but not all 13 of the Black Crusades were Abaddon's work.
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Old 30 Jun 2008, 05:17   #6 (permalink)
Anton
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trance Circus
And I'm surprised you didn't mention this, Anton, but not all 13 of the Black Crusades were Abaddon's work.
I'm aware of that, I've read about the Black Crusade of Jihar the Lacerator in Tactica Imperialis, but otherwise I've never heard of any other Chaos Champions leading Black Crusades except Abaddon and Jihar, besides I didn't think it was relevant to go into detail about Abaddon's achievements and so on.
 
Old 30 Jun 2008, 10:07   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

There's a couple of others whose names I can't remember, one's in the Apocalypse book I think...

I think it is relevant as the original poster cites Abaddon's failures as "13 Black Crusades." You very clearly point out that each one was successful in some way, even though he did not destroy the Imperium, but I thought it was important to note that it is only the most recent Black Crusades that Abaddon himself has led.
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Originally Posted by Restayvien
Well I'd rather not play the game at all than play it like they did! :P
Crikey! This crazy clown causes commotion like the coming of Christ. Contained in a circle corrupted by crackheads and carnal cravings, he creates no concession to callous cheaters concentrating on nought but cock. Certainly, still a curious and cordial cavalier in the countenance of crazed cads, curs and creeps who condemn courtesy as something corny. No cloud could collapse his crushing crescendo of comical crowing and crimson coiffure. This conjecture on culture comes circumlocutive, consequently...

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Old 30 Jun 2008, 11:25   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

If Abbadon fails/succeeds, that's because that's how GW has written him, that's how they want him.

And I don't think it strains the fluff either. When champions are punished for failure the punishment comes from their patron god. Abbadon, however, is patronised by all four of the major gods, and this gives him protection from any one of them. Further, Abbadon is too useful a unifying figure for Chaos Marines, being the successor to Horus in what was supposed to be the greatest marine legion, and is therefore useful to the gods for more than just his strength, but also as a symbol.
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Old 30 Jun 2008, 16:15   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trance Circus
one's in the Apocalypse book I think....
I believe you referring to Warmaster Davroth of the Word Bearers, he didn't declare a Black Crusade, but he was the leader of a massive Chaos Incursion. Davroth's aim was to increase his power personally, and the power of his forces, so he could kill Abaddon and take his place as the true Warmaster of Chaos. It's worth a try I suppose... :P

Anyway, I think it's a shame that GW hasn't listed the leaders/Champions of the 13 Black Crusades... A future project? Who knows!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trance Circus
but I thought it was important to note that it is only the most recent Black Crusades that Abaddon himself has led.
That's cool, however Abaddon has led Black Crusades earlier than the thirteenth, I believe he led a Black Crusade to claim the Daemon Sword Drach'nyen, for example. (I believe this can be found in one of the really old copies of White Dwarf, or one of the Index Astartes books.) However you are right to highlight the fact that other Chaos Champions have led Black Crusades, not just Abaddon.
 
Old 26 Aug 2008, 07:37   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has abbadon had too many chances?

Im not very active on these boards, and this was a page or so back so sorry if this is necromancy, but i was under the impression that chaos had a limited number of marines left, more so than the space marines, so I agree that after losing so many troops in these crusades that didn't cause significant damage to the imperium would warrant some punishment.

But i do see how being patronized by all 4 gods kind of prevents that, but i really think the only one of the chaos gods that wants the universe to stay in constant conflict is Tzeentch... Khorne obviously want to kill everything, i feel even as a chaos god he is shortsighted to the point that he isnt worried about what he will kill when all the mortals are gone, Nurgle seems to want to convert all "normal" mortal life into some form infested with his diseases which effectively destroys all mortal life... but Slaneesh... i don't know what hes all about... killing eldar? ???
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