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5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 19:45   #1 (permalink)
Anton
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Default 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

Heya,

As the dawn of 5th Edition closes, I think it's about time we plotted how we will adapt to these new changes. This is going to be a sensible, mature discussion of 5th edition and how it will effect the Chaos Space Marines and the Chaos Daemons. Here are a few ground rules for the discussion:
  • As stated, this will be a sensible, mature discussion. Anybody caught posting anything along the lines of: "oH nOEZ Teh 5Th EdiSHUn SuxorZ! CoaHS SuX NOW!1!" Will have their post removed, and will receive and immediate warning.
  • Do not hijack the thread with moping, griping, groaning or whining about 5th edition. Anybody caught posting like this will have their post(s) removed and receive an immediate warning,
  • Do not ask for the "internet" version of 5th edition (basically a pirated version of the rulebook.) Anybody caught asking for links to piracy websites will have their post(s) removed, receive a warning and may also be smote, as the posting of pirated materials is in direct conflict with the Forum Rules.
  • The discussion of the 5th edition rules and fluff is acceptable, however discussing how 5th edition "has ruined 40k" is not acceptable, and is thread hijacking. Anybody caught doing this will have their post(s) removed and receive an immediate warning.
  • If you are involved in the discussion, and another member(s) comment(s) have angered or upset you, leave your computer or laptop, and only continue to post once you are calm. Many discussions become heated, and will always escalate, however what makes a heated discussion worse is when people become emotional, and then the escalation from heated discussion to a flame war ensues, and that's when threads are closed and members punished. Be mature, and remove yourself from the discussion if you become too emotional. If another member(s) comments have upset or angered you, tell me or one of the Moderators and we will sort the problem out! Don't attempt to engage or challenge members if you are not in a fit state of mind to maintain a reasoned argument. If the worst happens, and this thread degenerates into a flame war, then the discussion will be halted immediately and locked, and the members in question will be severely punished.

The reason for these strict rules is that people get carried away very easily in the heat of an argument, and as I have seen myself, many discussions regarding 5th edition end abruptly because people cannot maintain a level of calm, mature posting, or that people simply vent their frustration at the new changes ahead. However this discussion will not become "another one of those threads," and I would like to reassure everyone that as I've personally promised to enforce these rules, I will enforce them.

Discuss away!

Regards,

Anton - Forces of Chaos.
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 20:18   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

Well, I'll get this started I guess...

As I've seen you can 'run' after you deepstrike. This is going to make the Daemonic Assault rule for Daemons much more acceptable, because you can land and then spread out, so Ordnance isn't as much of a problem. You still can't assault, but at least you aren't in a perfect formation to be templated.

Anyone else?
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 20:31   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

I personally think that that Codex:CSM is poised to do fairly well out of 5th Edition.

For Troops, it has a very durable,reliable mainstay(Chaos Marines) while also having nicely themed specialists(Cult Troops) so any army that faces CSM has to prepare for a good variety of troops to kill, as opposed to other Codices, which often have 2 Troop Choices max.

Large squad sizes - it'll be tough to take out an aspiring champion if he's surrounded by 15 of his mates.

Not hit by the rending bat, no need to reorganise your armies like the Loyalists(Assault Cannon Spam) or Xenos(Tyranids, and to a lesser extent, Eldar Harlequins).

No Skimmers, so not hit by that change either, see above line.

Run! Lets units such as Khorne Berzerkers hit the enemy lines a wee bit quicker(and when you've only got a Bolt Pistol, shooting isn't such a loss).

Vehicles more durable, no more benefit than other armies really, which is fair.

New Leadership Modifiers in CC, no worries there, Ld 10 with Aspiring Champion, and take the Mark of Undivided if you're scared of breaking.

True lines of sight, changes don't help or hinder really. Though I fear I may see more Daemon Princes that are just jumped-up Chaos Lords to exploit this.

Assaulting into combat, stadard units come with Frags, so no worries there.

Kill points, CSM units can be large, and seeing as they've the Toughness and Armour Save of their Loyalist Brethren(excepting those who follow Lord Nurgle) they're still tough as nails to take down en masse, so spamming small units is still a viable option.
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 20:33   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffl
Well, I'll get this started I guess...

As I've seen you can 'run' after you deepstrike. This is going to make the Daemonic Assault rule for Daemons much more acceptable, because you can land and then spread out, so Ordnance isn't as much of a problem. You still can't assault, but at least you aren't in a perfect formation to be templated.

Anyone else?
Here's the thing, with proper line of sight now in effect, and with templates now auto hitting all models that the template touches, the run ability won't be that much more effective than the current deep strike ruling. However I do believe that someone with the mental acuity to properly play them will find them extremely powerful. I myself am finding it easier to win than my old Deathwing or Tau armies.

My immediate thoughts however are whether the new run rules will reduce the effectiveness of lash against aggressive armies. Yes the heavy weapons won't be able to fire, and if you're running then neither will any of your other guns, but in certain units that are built for close combat... "You move me back 3 inches, Okay, next turn I'll just run" Granted it will be an annoyance factor for the opponent, but assuming you don't get higher than a 7 (which is average) they should be able to negate the bonus. Add in that pavane if playing a daemon army is not quite as good, and you have even less ground to make up.

Another thing to think about is with rhinos being so cheap, and with the new glancing/penetrating chart, a fully mobile list is looking even better than it was in 4th. Add to that if the vehicle is destroyed you only have to take a pinning test... I've already started my full World Eaters army with all troop choices being in rhinos. Should be fun!
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 21:33   #5 (permalink)
Anton
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffl
As I've seen you can 'run' after you deepstrike. This is going to make the Daemonic Assault rule for Daemons much more acceptable, because you can land and then spread out, so Ordnance isn't as much of a problem. You still can't assault, but at least you aren't in a perfect formation to be templated.
Not only will the "run" rule make the Daemons much more competitive, as you've stated, but also that the "run" rule will also play nicely into the hands of Khorne Berzerkers, whom can close with the enemy just that bit quicker, which can make all the difference. The new rule should be a sigh of relief for "footslogging" Chaos Space Marine armies, especially Khornate Chaos Space Marine Armies.
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 01:43   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

I've never been able to do this since you've locked every 5th Edition based thread, but I love you Anton for not letting the crazed rants hit this board I don't even bother trying to sift through the Tau forums anymore.

I am very confident about 5th Edition as a whole. Demon armies get a better deepstrike option with the new mishap table, and the run option will give the non-Slaanesh demons a leg up and hit cover. I'm interested to see how the change in scoring units will affect an army based entirely on deepstrike though. Demonic troops are good but without support from their backup units won't win anything. However, with all the points we're gonna wind up spending on our infantry I don't know how many we'll have left for the specialist troops...

In regards to CSM, Feel no Pain's nerf won't let Plague Marines be as powerful and their high points cost doesn't look AS promising... still a fantastic unit, just not as cost effective. new vehicle rules might let Dreadnoughts be worth their points cost.... :P not really. I kid. Overall, we have access to the most solid and versatile troops choices around, with a great standard armament and some really good options. Rhinos have become useful once again, and run makes all of our infantry faster as a whole. Plus, the summoned demons give us the ability to call down a bunch of scoring units right where we want them. 4 minimum sizes squads of demons on top of a few icon bearing Marine squads gives us a huge tactical advantage.

I'm interested to see how true line of sight plays out, as the Broker said it may be worth it to take a small non-intimidating lord instead of a big beefy demon model. One of the only negative things I see for Chaos are Thousand Sons: AP 3 conferred by the Rubric Marines can be negated much easier with the generous cover saves being dished out. I'm not sure they will be worth their points value so much anymore. Also, I pumped Obliterators are taller than a little CSM and should be able to fire over their own ranks without the cover save...
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 05:43   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

Has feel no pain been nerfed? And if so in what way (i ask this because I field Typhus and a sqaud of Plague marines and I need to know this so I can rearrange my list).
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 07:15   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

I have tested the 5th edition rules, and it seems that Chaos will have quite a field day with it. Unlike what most people say, they are very much balanced and some of the nerfs are actually reasonable. The FNP in 4th edition is just overpowered, but in 5th edition, it becomes apparent that it is reasonable.

Deepstriking squads will also benefit from the 5th rules, as now you are least likely to get totally destroyed, instead they may have a second chance in coming back the next turn. As for vehicles, if they are hidden partially behind terrain, they are almost invulnerable, as their cover saves will save their arses more often than not. Where my predators die one by one within a turn or two, now I can confidently say that if they are behind some cover, hey can make it through the game entirely intact.


Also, it seems that the gameplay is much faster and also more furious than before, with units able to reach their intended target within half the turn they needed to cover the distance to reach that target. But yet with the new scoring system and all, it takes a great amount of thinking and also speed to achieve the objective hard and fast.
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 08:48   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

In my mind, the ultimate test of 5th is whether you can actually field a proper Daemon Army. Under 4th, you can't; your army either lacks any decent killing-power (Nurgle), or just loses everything the moment the enemy open fire (everyone else). I for one don't want to be forced into fielding an unrealistic Mixed-God army; I want to be able to allign to one patron and still win a bloody game!
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 10:53   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 5th Edition: Chaos Space Marines & Chaos Daemons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
In my mind, the ultimate test of 5th is whether you can actually field a proper Daemon Army. Under 4th, you can't; your army either lacks any decent killing-power (Nurgle), or just loses everything the moment the enemy open fire (everyone else). I for one don't want to be forced into fielding an unrealistic Mixed-God army; I want to be able to allign to one patron and still win a bloody game!
Obviously you haven't played against my all Khorne army .

I'm excited about the new rules for deepstrike. Now if your unit lands on an enemy there's a 2/3 chance they won't die. Actually I retract that a little, because half of that chance allows your opponent to place your unit. Which, of course, means that either they'll place them where they will be least effective or where they can bring the most guns to bear... make that a 1/3 chance to survive. Still better than the automatic death they would normally have.

Also, I heard a rumor that because of true line of sight and another rule (don't know the name) that skimmers now block line of sight? If its true then it doesn't effect chaos at all, but tau are completely boinked, and eldar will be less powerful.
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