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My thoughts of the new daemons
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Old 05 Jun 2008, 00:39   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 365
Default My thoughts of the new daemons

Hi guys,

Like many of us, I just got the new 'Dex, and already have had an hard time figuring out the best way to use it. I've read many threads about it, and came to agree on one thing :
- The game mechanic is broken for our daemons. DA is cool and very fluffy, but it is a major flaw (flaw that justifies some of their amazing rules and stats... and cost) that we must get over.

One way to do it is to play with point costs. At high level games (1700 +), having only half of your army on the table can be a pain. But the min/maxing way the codex is done allows us to put a fairly high amount of point into an half, and the rest on the other, thereof making our army two waves of 400/1600 pts for let's say a 2000 pts game. (exemple : one slot of the chart being a fiend and another being a unit of 8 Bloodcrushers)

Another way to do it would be to do 2 exacts same waves, hopefully including as many resilient targets as possible on each side, so that your play style won't depend on which wave you get, and your opponent might not simply crush a weaker wave. Might not be as efficient as it sounds perhaps...

I also found that splitting the army into shooting/assault waves could be useful. The assault elements would have to be fast, so they can deepstrike far away, or resilient enough to take around 2 turns of fire power. But I doubt it would be that useful because our shooting elements are only good against Meqs (gaze) or anything 4+ (horrors/flamers).

Personally, I would stick with the first option (which might not be the easiest way to use with god themed armies), because many of the ''low cost'' units are either a) fast (Heralds, fiends, flamers, screamers) or b) won't do much the turn they arrive (a loner bloodcrusher, Nurglings), so should be deployed to survive more than for getting shot at...

Now, what about unit size ? I personally prefer small in high quantity squads to numerous ones. We have to take into account the deepstrike rules, which favorise smaller squads, and some role specific squads (Icons).
- Small squads for : target saturation, overkill losses, target priority, more choices for us on the charge/shooting, more areas covered, etc.
- Big squads for : Icons bearer, chart maximisation.

Speaking of the Icons, with or without ? I personally think that these are not ''count on'' upgrades, but should be used and deployed with an ''if'' in front. They are useful, but not much more. I would personnaly stick them on ICs heralds rather than on a squad (even a numerous one), and try to hide the said IC somewhere because he is cheaper, and now becomes a #1 priority, so he can suck up a lot of attention. (easier to hide, IC status protection, etc.)

Now that we know what's around the army, what should we use in it? I won't remake an analysis of all the units in the codex, for it has been done many times, but will focus on some of them. (more in a comparison style than a complaint style...).

HQs
First, we have a lot of Monstruous creatures with monstruous costs. Most of them play support roles, but some simply do it better.

KU'GATH is for me the ultimate GD out there. Way resilient, he has the best shooting of the dex, with an upgraded resilience and CC punch abilities. Plus he as the ability to spawn scoring units... He's good on his own IMO.

Fateweaver is just too tricky. Stick him with a lot of buddies around and he's useful, but otherwise he costs way too much.

Skarbrand... a daemon making mortals angry ? He's way too weak too. Pfff....

Other greater daemons are not special either, high costs, soso resilience, at the exeption of the Unclean One, which is worth it IMO. (he's cheap and more resilient than the others and he's still a GD, in my mind it makes him the #1).

Heralds are just plain nasty and cool. Fluffy, customizable, they come in any flavour you might want.
But don't abuse on them because nearly anything in the codex can do better in any specialization you give them for the same cost... (Heralds of Slaanesh on Chariots ? take seekers, shooty Herald of Tzeetch ? take Horrors...). The only really unique one is a naked (or iconed) Herald of tzeetch, because he's a great shooter.

Elites

Fiends are just medium based seekers in my opinion. For 4 more points, you get 2 extra attacks, and free slots for Flamers and Bloodcrushers... so Fiends are a compulsary ''chart filling'' unit IMO, but great units anyway.

Bloodcrushers are a deal. 4 bloodcrushers costs as much as 10 bloodletters. 8 wounds t5 save 3/5+ or 10 wounds t4 save 5+ ? Ok, I get less WAY TOO POWERFUL attacks, but not getting overkills everytime I charge is something I can deal with...

Flamers are unique and should be used in squads of 3.

Troops

Bloodletters, despite getting owned by their cousins, they are worth it because they do what Plague and 'nettes don't, they kill and survive...

Daemonettes aren't seekers, and are way too weak to take into consideration (because we got seekers...).

Plague Bearers are good for fluff armies, but nothing else.

Horrors are ok. Their cost is hich and they suck in CC, but they are ''ok'' shooters, plus who's dumb enought to actually get near us ?

Nurglings = > They are quite useful and I really consider using many of these. They fill up the ''hordish'' part of the codex quite well, plus they are cheap and resilient due to their uber number of wounds.

Fast Attack

Flesh Hounds or seekers ? Cost less, *more survivable*, but has no rending (even when nurfed, seekers gets enough rending attacks to make it useful) and lower attacks count. I think it is up to preference here. But I prefer seekers...

I dislike both of the following, but I'll still say who's the best beetween them...

Screamers over furies for 3 reasons : Basicly, a screamer is a furie that cost 1 more point with one less attack, but he's more resilient, faster and can do quite good against tanks.

HS

Soulgrinder is an awesome model, but I won't get one for many reasons. First, its our only vehicule. Second, if you upgrade him with tongue or phlemg (which you should), he cost just as much as two daemon princes, which are just, IMO, way better (resilience, killing power, etc...). Third, he's too big.

From here, I'll try to post some army lists, and any help is welcome. If you think I'm wrong with any element of my way of thinking, feel free to tell me.
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Old 05 Jun 2008, 03:41   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: My thoughts of the new daemons

Alright, I will be posting a larger response to your post tomorrow. It's just too late tonight to do it....

But for the most part.... Skarbrand is insanely good. In an army of Daemonettes and Blood Letters which will go first or at the same time as MEQ, the ability to reroll your misses is nasty. Add to that if you charged with your Letters or 'Nettes (which I've never had a problem with) you will be going before the MEQ thereby reducing, if not completely removing their attack backs. One unit of blood letters within 24" of Skarbrand will wipe a unit of marines a turn. Done right, you can literally jump from unit to unit based entirely on this combo. And 'Nettes, when using the reroll will get that rending roll a heck of a lot more. Thereby doing the same unit to unit jumping.

I know he's expensive, but take a closer look... there's a reason why I think he's the best of all the greater daemons.
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Old 05 Jun 2008, 10:46   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: My thoughts of the new daemons

Well, I have to disagree about Skar because yes, his ability is an awesome one when combined with other daemon stats and abilities, but he's not more resilient than a normal thirster or daemon prince, which are quite easily dead in my book. Its up to you if you want to hide a 300 pts model behind a bush in order for him to survive, but then his ability has a limited range, plus, what if you don't fight Meqs and the re-rolls simply benefits to your opponent ?

I reconize that his ability is great, but point wise and board wise, he's just an ''ok'' model, and an ''ok'' model worth 300 pts is not worth it, IMO.

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Old 05 Jun 2008, 11:10   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: My thoughts of the new daemons

Bladesuit does have a point, Skarbrand is cool but I'm not a fan of everyone getting rerolls to hit in close combat. If my bloodletters charged a gigantic unit of tyranid gaunts or imp guardsmen or something, Skarbrand's ability helps the enemy much more than my bloodletters, who are already good enough in close combat.

Though, I have seen his ability work well with horrors.
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Old 05 Jun 2008, 14:46   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: My thoughts of the new daemons

The thing with Skarbrand is, why isn't he in combat asap? He'll kill most anything in a one on one, his ability is way too easy to abuse, and anything you would face that has a higher than 5 initiative is either a) Dark Eldar b) genestealers c) a character. A) against Daemonettes with the reroll is a loss for them, B) Daemonettes go at the same time and the stealers won't need the reroll but the nettes will and C) Characters with high initiative are usually actually pretty easy to kill with almost anything in the daemon codex...

Simply put, a Slaanesh/Khorne list that uses Skarbrand will pretty much wipe through most armies (tri-falcon eldar and Mech Tau excluded). And facing a footslogger army is a beautiful thing to this army (I go first, get to reroll failed hits, have more attacks, etc...). So technically the only weakness I really see is the lack of anti-tank to take out the skimmers. Buy 2 daemon princes with breath of chaos and those can be killed.
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Old 05 Jun 2008, 17:02   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: My thoughts of the new daemons

Quote:
Buy 2 daemon princes with breath of chaos and those can be killed.
Like anything we can fild. Still, its 8 wounds instead of four and for less points... I'd take these anytime before Skar.

Yes, his ability is great, but ihe won't last for it. First, he's a number one target priority and IS a big juicy target. I'd be surprise if he ever makes the first shooting phase alive. And if he does, how long will he last in CC against re-rolling to hit pfists ?

Fine, he slaughters everything in CC, then he's left alone in the open fort shooting again...

300 pts for an average of 2 turns, one out of which is ability is used makes him, IMO, not reliable.

But then again I must agree that he can shine in some situations, but I would for sure not take him for my master piece, because he is bad at it.
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