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Daemons vs Daemonhunters
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Old 19 May 2008, 12:59   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Daemons vs Daemonhunters

I was just wondering about the Daemonic Infestation rule.

Do any of the new daemons get to come back after they are wiped off the board? Or is it just a rule that is out date?

I can see just basic troops getting use of the daemonic infestation rule. Anyone else have any thoughts on it?

Thanks.
Eric
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Old 19 May 2008, 13:07   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

Yes, your basic Daemons should make use of the rule, regardless of what the Rule-Lawyer says.
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Old 19 May 2008, 14:52   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

if you want to play by the rules, then nothing benefits from the daemonic infestation rule.

however, there is nothing stopping you from allowing your opponent to have the rule.
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Old 19 May 2008, 15:36   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Magnifico
if you want to play by the rules, then nothing benefits from the daemonic infestation rule.

however, there is nothing stopping you from allowing your opponent to have the rule.
They should clearly have Daemonic Infestation; the whole point of that rule is to counteract the massive benefits Daemonhunters receive fighting Daemons!

As I said, this is a case of RAW vs RAI. Because of the wording of the rules, then Codex: Daemons does not have any units that can make use of Daemonic Infestation... and I believe even the Chaos Codex suffers the same problem.

Despite this, Rules As Intended has a very obvious, and totally correct ruling; Daemonhunters have special rules vs Daemons, and in turn grant Daemons special rules to counterbalance. You are using Daemons, so the rule applies.
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Old 19 May 2008, 15:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

i meant my post to be light hearted and to the point, but it seems that it has opened a whole new can of worms.


we can pretty much NEVER know the designers intent on a rule. from what i've heard for 5th edition, the grey knights will have almost NO benefits against daemons apart from the ludicrously expensive psycannons and incinerators.

the RULES only allow daemon packs to get sustained assault. the unit "daemon pack" does still exist. can you claim that it was not the designers intent that only the advesaries daemon packs should have sustained assualt??

that said - i allow my daemon opponents to have sustained assault, i see it as free VP's for me for when i keep killing the squads over and over again.


the OP was about wether the RULE is granted to the new daemons. and by the RULES it is not. whether this is by intention or not, i dont know but the grey knights WERE considered when writing the codex (there is a section about them in it ), the RULES do not allow daemons to have sustained assault.


in a tournament, RAW is what is used so as a powergamer, for better or worse that is what i use.

i can never justify RAI, because ANYONE can have a differing opinion on what the rules mean.



to answer the OP again:

NO, the rules do not allow you to have sustained assault.

HOWEVER, it is perfectly reasonable in a friendly game to allow your opponents to use the rule

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Old 19 May 2008, 22:06   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

You're speaking from a RAW perspective.

What is the difference between a Mob and a Squad? The name. A Daemon Pack is a unit of Daemons. Grey Knights get rules against Daemons (read the Codex if you don't believe me), and likewise Daemons get Sustained Assault.

The "Daemon Pack" entry in the previous Codex listed four types of Daemon; Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, [Pink] Horrors and Daemonettes. Do these units still exist? Yes. Ergo, the rules still apply.


RAW is always wrong when a dispute of this type comes up; intent does not have spelling errors.


If you plan to go into a Tournament, discuss with the organisers to find out how many digits their IQ has before composing battle tactics.
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Old 19 May 2008, 22:15   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

I am a little vague on what advantages Daemonhunters actually have against Daemons in 4th Edition. Did Daemonic Instability make a reappearance, or are we just going off of the weapons that ignore invulnerable saves and the abilities Grey Knights have to slow an assault?
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Old 19 May 2008, 22:23   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

The point is, going by RAW, even the Chaos Daemon entries (which are subject to Instability) are exempt. Why? Because the name is slightly different.

Daemonhunters do need a revamp, no question about that. However, going by RAW you're going to be left with some gaping, and painfully stupid holes in the game mechanic.

Anyway, I'd give a blow-for-blow account, but my Daemonhunters Codex has spent the last year or so at a friend's house, so I can't give a detailed summary on how their rules work.
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Old 19 May 2008, 22:52   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

I know how they work. I played Daemonhunters before I played Tau. I just don't know how Instability works in the new version of the Daemons codex, and my understanding was that it is absent from the new Chaos Space Marines book.

I think Sustained Assault should work fine with the new rules, but it takes some House Ruling to patch the obvious gaps. My point is that you should really be doing the same for the Daemonhunter's strengths, as well. If the new rules have stripped a significant portion of those away, I don't see why the intentions regarding the penalties should be extended, either.
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Old 19 May 2008, 22:56   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Daemons vs Daemonhunters

Regardless of the RAW vs. RAI debate, we should have a definitive answer on July 12th when the daemon hunters FAQ is released.
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