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Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods
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Old 12 May 2008, 13:32   #1 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

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Originally Posted by Daemonette Embrace
In my opinion, the way that the game mechanics are allowed, themed armies will not fare well in game play.

Mixing daemon squads in your army will do better. This however is going to tick off a great deal of players who like having a themed army promoting only one daemon god.
While I do kind of agree with you, the new fluff clearly states that the four gods work together, and are willing to lead armies with mixed daemons.

If you want to play a single-god army, you can, but the odds are probably stacked against you. If anyone takes opposition to mixed-daemon armies, they need to stop living in the past and read the current fluff.

I've split this from the thread Codex: Daemons released today! as some people seem unable to remain on topic. You can discuss and debate the Chaos Gods and their alliances here, so don't let me catch you spilling over into other threads, okay? - Anton.
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Old 12 May 2008, 13:43   #2 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

The "current fluff" makes it pretty clear the Chaos Gods spend most of their time at war with one another; an alliance of any kind is exceedingly rare, and is best represented by Epic (a Black Crusade is not something to be played out in a 1,000pt 40K battle!).
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Old 12 May 2008, 13:59   #3 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

the way I see it mixed daemons VS mixed daemons would never be justifiable fluff-wise...

As the gods constantly struggle with each other over dominance over each other, the only reason for them to join forces is when they lash out at the various other factions...

The chaos gods fight on two levels. The first is the battle for dominance over the universe, which is done by fighting the other forces (Imperium, Eldar, etc. etc.). Since all gods seek to conquer the universe, the obvious choice would be to team up and having the 4 gods control everything. As an all-star team they seek to eliminate the competition.

Then on a second, more personal level, the gods continue to fight, but now against each other, over rule of the already conquered areas.

The first level of battle is likely to end first, while the second decides who will become the ultimate ruler of everything.
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Old 12 May 2008, 14:27   #4 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

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Originally Posted by Wargamer
The "current fluff" makes it pretty clear the Chaos Gods spend most of their time at war with one another; an alliance of any kind is exceedingly rare, and is best represented by Epic (a Black Crusade is not something to be played out in a 1,000pt 40K battle!).
Maybe I'm mixing the Fantasy and 40k books a little, as I bought them both this weekend, but one of them clearly goes into how, while the gods war with each other, they're all, in the end, a big disharmonious family, and that they'll team up easily to fight anyone outside the family, as what is good for the family is, in the end, good for each god, while what's bad for the family is bad for each god.
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Old 12 May 2008, 14:38   #5 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

That's probably the Fantasy book (which, to me, seems the weaker of the two in terms of background).

I didn't get any such impression from the 40K book. If anything, it makes it seem like the Chaos Gods are always at each other's throats!
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Old 12 May 2008, 15:16   #6 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

They cannot be. It has to be a balance.

If they're always outright fighting each other, then Khorne just wins, right? Because it is definately part of the 40k story that he even gets more powerful even when his bloodletters fight among each other. If Khorne gains power whenever any daemons kill each other, than it stands to reason that the other gods, in a case of enlightened self-interest, will stop their own fights if it appears that Khorne is about to gain too much of an upper-hand as a result of their squabbles.

QED - they cannot always be fighting.
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Old 12 May 2008, 15:19   #7 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

No, you're wrong.

If Khorne looks like he's about to annihilate any one God, the other two join forces with(out) the weaker one and attack him.

And they are not always balanced. Both rulebooks make mention of a time when Tzeench was the most powerful of the Gods, and the other three ganged up on him. The Warhammer one makes mention of how Khorne crushed Slaneesh, cowed Nurgle and humbled Tzeench, thus making him the mightiest of the four.

No Chaos God can ever permanently be the most powerful, but they can be dominant for a time. If you played Risk for seven hours straight with six people involved, you'd understand the mechanics behind the Chaos Gods and their alliances.
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Old 12 May 2008, 16:25   #8 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

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No, you're wrong.
I think this is the silliest argument I've ever seen posted on the internet. No, you're wrong. :

Quote:
If Khorne looks like he's about to annihilate any one God, the other two join forces with(out) the weaker one and attack him.
That does not make sense. It has already been established that Khorne gains power from any kills. It does not matter if Khorne's daemons die or if Slaaneshes die, as long as they die in combat, Khorne gains power.

The other two can't "join forces and attack", what they need to do is to end the warfare in some other way, such that Khorne doesn't get even more powerful.
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Old 12 May 2008, 17:54   #9 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

They always just fall back on the "the ways of Chaos are mysterious" when this comes up.

Fluffwise, reasons Khorne can't obliterate all the other deities even if he grew stronger through battle.

1. The debating place: One of the books has a big description on how there's an area where they all get together and talk stuff through, and how Tzeentch usually wins there.
2. Arcane rules for battles: It mentions how some of their "battles" have no fighting allowed! Khorne = loses!
3. If Khorne is strengthened by conflict, then, paradoxically, he's weakened by victory (or defeat, any resolution really). It may not be in his interest to eliminate all opposition.

Personally I think the whole "Khorne = Lord of slaughter" is the same rubbish as Nurgle being Lord of Disease. Khorne is the Lord of Wrath. He is, at the end of the day, a Warp reflection of the sum totality of life's anger. He provokes slaughter because it feeds anger, the same with murder etc. He's aggression, not destruction. Liber Chaotica has more about this, but basically if the enemy aren't angry (as Daemons of the other Chaos Gods tend not to be) they aren't strengthening Khorne any.

Fluff justification for mixed armies:

There's a whole page insert in the 40k book about these Daemons chilling in the warp, scrying on the materium, when suddenly a gate opens and they all just run through. The Daemonettes are making fun of the Bloodletters, but they are all unified in stomping on the Space Marines.
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Old 12 May 2008, 23:27   #10 (permalink)
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Default Allies or Enemies? - The Chaos Gods

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Personally I think the whole "Khorne = Lord of slaughter" is the same rubbish as Nurgle being Lord of Disease. Khorne is the Lord of Wrath.
Bingo. At first I considered that the demon armies working together might seem weird with their gods feuding and such, but you must examine the requirements for a mixed army... sure, the biggest incursions are things like the Black Crusades where the Chaos Gods kind of unify and send all their demons to war together. However, most incursions into the mortal world aren't always based on the Gods but on the demons own personal agendas. Demons are fond of materializing in the material universe, so would certainly side with a powerful Greater Demon or prince that can get them there. While in the great game the gods may not be best of friends, in the material universe the line gets blurred a little it. So long as the god's agenda is accomplished, it makes little difference. But still, when the Codex talks about how Demons materialize in the mortal realm it indicates strongly that demons desire to be there regardless of their gods' whims and would cause carnage regardless of the requirements.

Sure, the great game is fun and all but how can Nurgle get new followers if his Plague Bearers don't find them for him? And what about Demons of Tzeentch, who quest for knowledge and power and all around mischief regardless of what their gods feel like doing.

The gods do not like each other, but that does not mean that the demons hate each other as well. Are they on great terms? Of course not. Would they work together. Definitely.
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