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What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 13:00   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Got the new Space Marine codex, comparing it with Chaos...the SM seem to get a lot of stuff a lot cheaper. How do y'all configure armies to fight SM?
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 13:17   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Well your basic trooper comes with all the tools for every job ever needed. Multi-purpose!

We also have cheaper terminators (with power weapons and not fists, which is awesome when coupled with Slaanesh, the extra I will mean you strike first against the loyalist scum!)

Plasma works well here, a squad of 10 with 2 plasma guns and a rhino makes a mean little unit, that can also grab objectives and kill some space marines with relative ease.

If your looking to use the cult units, the prime candidate here are the thousand sons, AP3, that makes sure those space marines are going to die, they are also resilient if the enemy fires plasma at them, considering the 4+ inv, they are a tough nut to crack, but don't expect them to survive basic firepower better than your average marine, if you want that, grab plague marines, they can also have 2 plasma guns and you do not need 10 men. Pack these guys in a rhino too if you wish.

Another recommendation for smashing things in combat is the faithfully blood crazed Khorne berzerker, give your aspiring champion a power weapon and combined with furious charge, it'll provide you a few dead marines, plus your better weapon skill will ensure more hits!

Every unit in the chaos army can be used well against marines, it's a case of what you prefer in my opinion.

Hopefully this helps.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 15:26   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

What about Noise Marines and their sonic weaponry? This is racial prejudice! :P

Seriously though, apart from multi-purpose marines there is one big advantage: daemons! Not as cool as before, still they are deadly in close combat, and the way tey are deployed makes them great in assaults. Nobody else has anything like that.
Also, Obliterators. They don't seem that much, but it's the unit type most hated by my usual opponent. Speaks for itself...
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 16:17   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarius Scorch
What about Noise Marines and their sonic weaponry? This is racial prejudice! :P
Uhhh.....whoops :P

Solarius makes a good point, noise marines and sonic weapons will decimate just about anything that isn't T5+ or a vehicle.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 18:08   #5 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mole
If your looking to use the cult units, the prime candidate here are the thousand sons, AP3, that makes sure those space marines are going to die, they are also resilient if the enemy fires plasma at them, considering the 4+ inv, they are a tough nut to crack, but don't expect them to survive basic firepower better than your average marine, if you want that, grab plague marines, they can also have 2 plasma guns and you do not need 10 men. Pack these guys in a rhino too if you wish.
Actually, in terms of practicality, the Thousand Sons are not that practical. This is because without that Rhino, they will be super slow, and they are only equipped to kill one thing and one thing ony; Infantry. IN addition, you pop that rhino away, and they will be forced to footslog, which doesn't help. Who cares if you got AP3 bolters? Once they are forced out from their Rhinos, they are no longer a threat.

Their point cost is actually more expensive than that of a Plague Marine, for they need their psykers that will help them boost their already awesome potential that cost even more points. Very expensive for what they do.

The Plague Marines are a better buy for they are more or less more versatile units than the Thousand Sons, able to footlsog or ride on a Rhino and be scary to any vehicle unit or infantry unit.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 18:27   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

er well what about ap3 bolters, deamon princes,greater daemons, bezerkers and daemon wepons yer chaos really get done over by the sm codex
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 21:59   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mole
If your looking to use the cult units, the prime candidate here are the thousand sons, AP3, that makes sure those space marines are going to die, they are also resilient if the enemy fires plasma at them, considering the 4+ inv, they are a tough nut to crack, but don't expect them to survive basic firepower better than your average marine, if you want that, grab plague marines, they can also have 2 plasma guns and you do not need 10 men. Pack these guys in a rhino too if you wish.
Actually, in terms of practicality, the Thousand Sons are not that practical. This is because without that Rhino, they will be super slow, and they are only equipped to kill one thing and one thing ony; Infantry. IN addition, you pop that rhino away, and they will be forced to footslog, which doesn't help. Who cares if you got AP3 bolters? Once they are forced out from their Rhinos, they are no longer a threat.

Their point cost is actually more expensive than that of a Plague Marine, for they need their psykers that will help them boost their already awesome potential that cost even more points. Very expensive for what they do.

The Plague Marines are a better buy for they are more or less more versatile units than the Thousand Sons, able to footlsog or ride on a Rhino and be scary to any vehicle unit or infantry unit.
you say here that tey are only good for killing infantry

infantry is what most armies mainly consist of so this is actually nothing bad

they have a 1/3 chance of moving 6 inches, exactly the same as marines and they can shoot full distance ap3 wepons while moving

their psykers are insanely good, yes a little bit expensive, but to counteract that expensiveness they are also incredibly resilient with their 4+ invulnerable so it is not so much of a problem and they have a great leadership so they will get off their psychic power more often than not

they are not that bad in combat as they are marines that are fearless and have a force weopons in the unit so that is a bonus

plague marines are also very good and more versatile and i would never take a whole army of tzeentch marines becasue they do have problems but i just think you are underestimating their incredible potential


now back to the main topic i think that space marines have been a little bit screwed over by their chaos counterparts because whatever marines can do, basically chaos marines can do it better tbh

marines do have their traits which makes them more versatile and they are also cheaper and tehir automatic rally ability is insanely good but i think chaos are probably a better army

correct me if i am wrong

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Old 20 Jan 2008, 01:49   #8 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by GO ON DEANO!!
you say here that tey are only good for killing infantry

infantry is what most armies mainly consist of so this is actually nothing bad

they have a 1/3 chance of moving 6 inches, exactly the same as marines and they can shoot full distance ap3 wepons while moving

their psykers are insanely good, yes a little bit expensive, but to counteract that expensiveness they are also incredibly resilient with their 4+ invulnerable so it is not so much of a problem and they have a great leadership so they will get off their psychic power more often than not

they are not that bad in combat as they are marines that are fearless and have a force weopons in the unit so that is a bonus

plague marines are also very good and more versatile and i would never take a whole army of tzeentch marines becasue they do have problems but i just think you are underestimating their incredible potential


But the thing is that most infantry would be already be hiding in cover, and thus made their AP3 bolter a little more redundant. In adition, once they know THousand Sons are on the table, all enemy fire would be on the rhinos. Thousands Sons as Fire Magnets is not exactly a good thing, before you even counter. After the rhino is down, they ae for all intend and purposes pinned and thus unable to do anything for one turn, which will only mean that the opponent will either

1)Ignore them for more potent targets

2)Get away from you

3)Shoot you to death.

Who cares if you get the invulnerable save? Massed firepower would be the bane of the Thousand Sons, in addition to AP3 weapons. THousand Sons may be durable but only so much.

1/3 chance of moving 6" is not good, for you have 2/3 chance of not moving 6. NO thanks. If they are Obliterators, I would not mind, but this one I have to pass. A constantly 6"-moving trooper is better, and it gets better when the 6"-moving trooper is mounted. The reason why you mount them in rhinos is to;

1)Capture objectives and/or quarters

2)get close to your intended target and Rapid-fire

3)Preserve Victory points

In terms of Psychic powers, on average you will be using your psychic powers only at least 3-4 times in the entire game for every character. This is because

1)They will be mounted for the first turn

2)Table Restriction (Line of Sight, Terrain Layout, etc)

A Thousands Sons' primary purpose is to shoot, and once it is in combat it is best that the squad gets out from close combat as fast as possible, for the likelyhood that the Aspiring Sorcerer dying is greater there. But they are still good against opponents that are not close combat specialist in close combat.

Quote:
now back to the main topic i think that space marines have been a little bit screwed over by their chaos counterparts because whatever marines can do, basically chaos marines can do it better tbh

marines do have their traits which makes them more versatile and they are also cheaper and tehir automatic rally ability is insanely good but i think chaos are probably a better army

correct me if i am wrong
The army as a whole excelled at close to middle-ranged shooting and assault, and that means that more often than not the Loyalist will be better off in terms of firepower, for marines are better in medium to long range shooting. And thus, they are evened out that way.

Also, Chaos Space Marines tend be more expensive than their loyalist counterparts.
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Old 20 Jan 2008, 03:37   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
Quote:
Originally Posted by GO ON DEANO!!
you say here that tey are only good for killing infantry

infantry is what most armies mainly consist of so this is actually nothing bad

they have a 1/3 chance of moving 6 inches, exactly the same as marines and they can shoot full distance ap3 wepons while moving

their psykers are insanely good, yes a little bit expensive, but to counteract that expensiveness they are also incredibly resilient with their 4+ invulnerable so it is not so much of a problem and they have a great leadership so they will get off their psychic power more often than not

they are not that bad in combat as they are marines that are fearless and have a force weopons in the unit so that is a bonus

plague marines are also very good and more versatile and i would never take a whole army of tzeentch marines becasue they do have problems but i just think you are underestimating their incredible potential


But the thing is that most infantry would be already be hiding in cover, and thus made their AP3 bolter a little more redundant. In adition, once they know THousand Sons are on the table, all enemy fire would be on the rhinos. Thousands Sons as Fire Magnets is not exactly a good thing, before you even counter. After the rhino is down, they ae for all intend and purposes pinned and thus unable to do anything for one turn, which will only mean that the opponent will either

1)Ignore them for more potent targets

2)Get away from you

3)Shoot you to death.

Who cares if you get the invulnerable save? Massed firepower would be the bane of the Thousand Sons, in addition to AP3 weapons. THousand Sons may be durable but only so much.

1/3 chance of moving 6" is not good, for you have 2/3 chance of not moving 6. NO thanks. If they are Obliterators, I would not mind, but this one I have to pass. A constantly 6"-moving trooper is better, and it gets better when the 6"-moving trooper is mounted. The reason why you mount them in rhinos is to;

1)Capture objectives and/or quarters

2)get close to your intended target and Rapid-fire

3)Preserve Victory points

In terms of Psychic powers, on average you will be using your psychic powers only at least 3-4 times in the entire game for every character. This is because

1)They will be mounted for the first turn

2)Table Restriction (Line of Sight, Terrain Layout, etc)

A Thousands Sons' primary purpose is to shoot, and once it is in combat it is best that the squad gets out from close combat as fast as possible, for the likelyhood that the Aspiring Sorcerer dying is greater there. But they are still good against opponents that are not close combat specialist in close combat.

Quote:
now back to the main topic i think that space marines have been a little bit screwed over by their chaos counterparts because whatever marines can do, basically chaos marines can do it better tbh

marines do have their traits which makes them more versatile and they are also cheaper and tehir automatic rally ability is insanely good but i think chaos are probably a better army

correct me if i am wrong
The army as a whole excelled at close to middle-ranged shooting and assault, and that means that more often than not the Loyalist will be better off in terms of firepower, for marines are better in medium to long range shooting. And thus, they are evened out that way.

Also, Chaos Space Marines tend be more expensive than their loyalist counterparts.

My experiences have been thus: Marine armies(all three versions) have more tricks in all department: From the rerolling hits and wounds, masses amounts of powerweapons and tooled up Chaplains for hand to hand combat,to assault cannons and the supposedly going away 6 man las/plas squads...

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Old 20 Jan 2008, 13:13   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: What advantages do New Chaos have over Space Marines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
But the thing is that most infantry would be already be hiding in cover, and thus made their AP3 bolter a little more redundant. In adition, once they know THousand Sons are on the table, all enemy fire would be on the rhinos. Thousands Sons as Fire Magnets is not exactly a good thing, before you even counter. After the rhino is down, they ae for all intend and purposes pinned and thus unable to do anything for one turn, which will only mean that the opponent will either

1)Ignore them for more potent targets

2)Get away from you

3)Shoot you to death.

Who cares if you get the invulnerable save? Massed firepower would be the bane of the Thousand Sons, in addition to AP3 weapons.
I think you underestimate the Thousand Sons somewhat.

1) Thousand Sons will mostly not be outshot by other types of marine infantry in the mid to short-range firefight, due to the combination of 3+/4+ save, ap3 and slow and purposeful.

2) At long-range, they are protected by their 4+ inv. They will survive even better than plague marines against lascannons, missile launchers melti-meltas, and just as well against plasma weaponry. They will die to heavy bolters and autocannons at the same rate as ordinary marines.

3) They survive assaults pretty much as well as Plague Marines, since they basically nullify all upgraded CC weaponry with the 4+ inv. I recall that 40kenthusiast ran some tests of their survivability in CC using a sorcerer with warptime (and assuming that there is a round of shooting prior to it). They compare favourably to ordinary marines, even chaos marines who are pretty much the equivalent of "close combat specialised" loyalists (i.e. bolt pistol and CC weapon), of the same point cost.

4)
Point cost comparison of 8 Thousand Sons and 8 Plague Marines:
8 Plague Marines, Aspiring Champion with Powerfist, 2 plasma guns = 254 points
7 Thousand Sons + 1 Aspiring Sorcerer, Warptime = 246 points

Note that the cost of the sorcerer is not added to the base cost of a Thousand Sons marine.

5) Footslogging is never really what you want to do to obtain objectives, even without slow and purposeful. So, giving the edge to other marines for footslogging 6 inches as opposed to an average of about 4 is not that strong of an argument, especially if we again consider the bonus of slow and purposeful: While an ordinary marine moves 6" and fires their ordinary bolter once to 12", the Thousand Sons marine moves 4" and fires an ap3 shot to 24". So what you say is true, but it's not major, and once we're talking about marines in Rhinos, there's no difference.

So, like I said, the main threat against them is long-range massed fire, i.e. heavy bolters and autocannons. But where does this threat come from? Generally not from other troops choices, but from tanks, devastators/havocs, landspeeders, dreadnaughts. But since there are now no restrictions on the types of units we can take, we can counter this with our own heavy/elite choices.

In summary Thousand Sons are probably the most effective Chaos Marines against an infantry based Space Marine army. Plague marines are still great. Noise marines and Berzerkers are probably not as good. Noise Marines will cost even more than Thousand Sons for weaponry that won't be quite as effective.

I have squads of Plague Marines and Noise Marines because they have more versatility, i.e. they can be used effectively against any army. But if I wanted to specialise against Space Marines, Thousand Sons are the ones for the job, hands down.

That said, all the cult marines are better than standard marines if you use them to their strengths, and I think that their higher cost is pretty much spot on to capture their effectiveness. Which means that, in the end, it should have more to do with the commander than with rock-paper-scissors lists.
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