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Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 10:38   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

Hello everyone, first post and allready starting a new topic. :P

To begin with, this topic is meant as a discussion. I'm having a problem and I'd like to hear people's opinions. Please give arguments for your statements and not simple say by example: "Terminators suck!" or "Eldar is IMBA!"

So now for the topic:

"No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army."

I'm playing with chaos since the new codex, and have played blood angels before that. I might not be the best player, but I can hold my standing.
A friend of mine plays Dark Eldar, and is a good player who knows what he's doing. His usual 2000points list looks like this:

Lord on Skyboard, who can move a total of 24+d6 inch in one turn, has the all know invulnerable save, and kicks as in closecombat
2x10 warriors with 2 dark lances
Raider with 10 witches
Raider with 10 witches
Raider with his secondary lord and 10 incubi (if I got the name right)
Talos
Talos
Ravager

This gives him a total of 8 dark lances, 3 closecombat squads which break any of mine, and 1 lord which kills my lords in an instant, and 2 fatso's.

I've had a lot of thought about it, tried a lot of different tactics, and it begins to look to me there is no way I can win from him with chaos.

As a sidenote: I refuse to play with lists that I consider as being "Cheese".

So my question to you guys:
- Is it possible to win with chaos from a good dark eldar player?
- And if so, what can I possibly do to win from this list?

Waiting for your comments,

JeZuZ
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 11:06   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

tnh making oulandish statements dosent amuse me

of corce a choas army can beat de your obiously a n00b and dont have any tacics and cant right a good list!

just take slanesh with duel lashing princes with wings noise marines with blastmasters and oblits!


Your spelling and grammar are horrible and you're attitude leaves much to be desired as well. Clean up your posts and don't talk down to people asking for advice. Smote. - Cadaver
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 11:12   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

Welcome to the lands of Chaos.

It's good that you know what HIS list is, but what forces do you have at your command? It's hard to offer suggestions on army building if we don't know what "raw materials" we have to use.

But I can offer some general help. As a former basher of the Dark Eldar, I'd take forces mostly from the Nurgle side of the list, with Khorne as a second choice; A huge squad or two of Bezerkers should be able to clear out the DE, irregardless of how good the Eldar are in combat. Also, Dark Eldar armor (Both on foot and their skimmers), for the most part (Except Incubi) is exceedingly weak- even the humble boltgun, if used en masse, can bring down a raider before it gets to you, usually causing the frail riders no end of grief. Flamers are also great against the Warriors...
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 11:37   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmother
tnh making oulandish statements dosent amuse me
of corce a choas army can beat de your obiously a n00b and dont have any tacics and cant right a good list!
just take slanesh with duel lashing princes with wings noise marines with blastmasters and oblits!
First things first - Wolfmother, please familiarize yourself with forum rules. Your spelling, grammar, and overall tone of the your post is both childish and arrogant. Consider it flagged. Cheers.

Now to business, welcome to the forums JeZuZ and thanks for an excellent topic.

I think that a very fast Dark Eldar army played by an exceptional player (which seems to be what your facing) is going to be tough for anyone - not just Chaos. So let's start by accessing the respective strengths and weaknesses of each army.

Dark Eldar Strengths:
Speed (primarily)
Firepower (secondarily)

Dark Eldar Weaknesses
Durability
Low Model Count

Chaos Strengths:
Specialized units (Nurgle - tough, Khorne - assault, Slannesh - ranged, Tzeentch - mid-ranged)
Durable / Deadly units (Possessed, Terminators, Obliterators)

Chaos Weaknesses:
Mobility
Low Model Count

Okay, now that we've looked at that. We can see that both sides are going to suffer from very few models on the board. That's actually a good thing. However, the number #1 advantage of Dark Eldar is the #1 disadvantage of Chaos. That's a bad thing.

But the good part is that you can counter this by doing two things differently - neither of which actually happen during your turn. #1 Army Selection - select and army that is going to be very tough for him to break and which counters his ability to get up close and fight. #2 Deployment - he's counting on you to isolate portions of your force and put yourself in a position where he can use cover and speed to quickly overwhelm those portions independently.

Here are some general rules for #2.
-Never deploy any substantial part of your army more than 12" away from another part. Otherwise he may simply flip flop his sides and leave your isolated portions to "run" towards the fight and arrive late.

-Deploy with your forces covering the fire corridors on the board, but be prepared for him to bypass open terrain altogether. Make him come to you. Create "fire traps" during deployment where he can only enter an area with minimal forces and where you can maximize your firepower.

-Deploy so that your can bog down his paper thin units with your more substantial units.

Now to #1:
-Pick units who are very durable (Terminators, Plague Marines, Obliterators) - Plague Marines are by far my favorite here. They're going to do very well in short ranged fire fights against these pansy Eldar and can absorb almost anything they can dish out. Additionally, they are very good in close combat as they'll survive most assaults, assault well in cover, and can hit back with a reasonable number of potent attacks. Watch out for close combat weapons that ignore armor saves - these are the bane of Feel No Pain.

-Select high firepower units who can dish out damaging ordinance into skimmers (Predators, Land Raiders, Havocs, Blastmasters, and Obliterators). Skimmers are hard to bring down - but it is possible. You'll need enough ranged weaponry to bring down these fast vehicles - but once you do - they make great cover for your troops.

-Select units who can counter-assault Dark Eldar (Berserkers, Terminators, Possessed). These units will be used to bog down the T3 Eldar and smash them. Keep in mind that most Dark Eldar are only wounding Plague Marines on a 6. Add your Power Armor Save and Feel No Pain and your opponent is going to think twice before committing against these guys - which is great for you because you can shoot him up just as easily.

For your in game tactics - I suggest three things:
1) Target priority. Focus on transports when they have troops in them (especially that Incubi raider) and then the other skimmers when the transports are empty.

2) Use cover. Dark Eldar aren't going to want to fly their skimmers into cover to get you - they will have to assault while you're in cover (but many have Plasma Grenades) better yet - counter-assault them in cover with Frag Grenades so you can hit even up.

3) Force him to react to you. Dark Eldar armies are notorious for capturing the initiative and making you react to them early in the game. Simply don't let that happen. Make him come to you and force him to isolate his force on the way in. It will be a hard fight, but you cannot let him land a few units of Wychs against one of your units - you will lose.

Finally, in closing - your opponent makes a few mistakes with his list. Incubi are a bad decision. They are far too slow and expensive to field and be efficient. He would be better to buy Wyches on Jetbikes. Likewise he would be better with more Ravagers than Talos. So you could be facing a much faster harder army. Here's an example from a WD tactics on Dark Eldar - which you should read if you can find a copy (it's by Chris Bell in WD 309 and called Commorragh's Elite)

2 x Dracon on Jetbike
10 Wyches with Wych weapons and Succubus - Raider with Dark Lance
2 x 10 Warriors with Splinter Cannon, Blaster and Sybarite - Raider with Disintigrator
2 x 10 Warriors with 2 Dark Lances
3 x 5 Reaver Jetbikes with 2 Blasters and Succubus
2 x Ravager with 3 Disintigrators

That's all for 1850 points. So you could have it worse, mate.

Best of luck,
Em

Nice post, Emlyn +1 - Khanaris
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 12:57   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

It is hard, especially with the new Chaos Codex - DE are totally optimised for taking out heavy armies, and the reduction in Chaos long range weaponry (ie it costs more) doesn't help. We have all the armies except Tyrannids, and DE are the toughest anti-armour force we have.

Things Chaos players need to know:

(i) Don't take vehicles - DE can pop them v fast
(ii) Get numbers - don't buy expensive stuff, DE can pop terminators etc easily
(iii) However, you do need 2-3 fast units to seize initiative
(iv) Key is to get lots of people into bolter range, then you can hurt 'em
(v) You will need 1 absolutely kick-arse combat unit to take on the DE Archon, and prob 1 other reasonably good one to map to the Wyches (there is always a unit of Wyches somewhere in their game).

I play an infantry-heavy Word Bearer army vs DE - no vehicles, 6 Obliterators, 2 Raptor squadrons w/ Aspiring champs and various h2h adapts, and lots of good ole' CSM, and a tooled up Sorcerer. Still a tough fight.....


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Old 19 Jan 2008, 18:56   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

Thanks you all for your comments

@Wolfmother: Sorry, but it seems that you have misunderstood me. I'm not saying that Chaos can't beat DE. I'm saying that I can't seem to do it after trying a lot of things, and want to know how other people fare against them.

@Deneris: My lists tend to differ a lot from battle to batlle, depending on how I want to play. Most of the time it comes down to this:

DeamonPrince with mark of nurgle, warptime and wings (personal Icon if needed)

and/or
Chaos lord, mark of slaanesh, deamonic steed, deamon weapon.

2 squads of Plague marines with Powerfist champions and meltaguns

2 squads of raptors

1 or 2 squads of obliterators

A predator

Terminators (ussually deepstriking trough icons)

I'm out of time at the moment, hope this will be enough for now.
I'll finish tonight.

Greets.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 21:43   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

slaanesh daemons with lash are incredibly good and can be used to great effect by moving his wyches away from you and moving his heavy weopon units out of squad coherency and such so that they have to move next turn and not shoot

berzerkers are insane and can take out pretty much any dark eldar unit you throw at it with the sheer attacks they have

ur plague marines should be sufficient to take out tanks and most units with bolters n meltas and can take some damage themselves

terminators should only be deployed when most dark lances are gone or they will just be free points for ur apponent,

raptors are good but expensive and not particularly difficult to kill so be careful with htem

if ur gna take vehihcles take rhinos,
they are cheap, they can transport ur combat squads very quickly and they can run forward first or second turn fire their smoke launchers, let out their guys safely and then get blown up after their purpose is fulfilled

but in the end mate if ur apponent is a better tactician than you then ur probably not going to win so i advise you to post what tactics ur friend uses and get some clever sorts to help you out with how to counteract them because that could potentially be more important than even what ur list is

kick some dark eldar arse man

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Old 19 Jan 2008, 23:00   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

I would probably swap the melta's on your plague marines to plasma's. They can take down those annoying skimmers quite well and can unleash hell at close range (remember FNP helps you with overheats). I'm not sure what load out you give your pred but i would simply go for a bare bones dakka pred (Auto+H.bolter), this is great for both taking down skimmers and mowing down infantry. Lastly I would probably minimise the Number of oblits and get rid of the terminators. DE use a lot of light vehicles so lots of oblits aren't as necessary, weapons with slightly lower Str and a higher rate of fire are better i.e autocannons. The terminators are nice but I find that DE have to many low AP weapons capable of taking them down to quickly, I would spend the points on something like berzerkers to give you a strong counter charge unit.
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Old 19 Jan 2008, 23:24   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

Well, I'd say no, Chaos can beat Dark Eldar, All you need are: a) Good Tactics b) A good list c) A fair bit of luck .

1 The Marks Of Khorne or Slannesh are the best against DE. I'd personally take Slannesh, as its alot cheaper, and very effective.

2 Khorne Berzerkers, And Noise Marines are good. Thousand Sons and Plague Marines, not as much. Too expensive, so you will probably end up outnumbered 2:1.

3 Exploiting weaknesses is what chaos does best. Specifically, their low armored vehicles, and low stats. Use this to your advantage.

Hope this helps .
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Old 20 Jan 2008, 03:08   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Discussion: No Chaos army can win from a good Dark Eldar army

JeZuZ/ Cyven, I assume you are the same person. Having multiple accounts here is not allowed. You need to pick which one you want to use, which I assume would be the Cyven account and stick with it.

Go On Deano, insulting members regardless of if you know them in real life, are your friends, etc. is not acceptable. Also, netspeak or text style posts are not allowed. You need to use proper grammar and spelling. You're new here so I suggest you take a look at the forum rules.

Wolfmother, you've already been smote once here and correcting someone on their posting is quite hypocritical since your own post was riddled with errors. I would focus on working on your own posting behavior before criticizing someone else's.

I've cleaned up and deleted several posts. Keep it on topic or I'm going to come down hard on everyone who's been causing trouble here.
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