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Some observations and opinions.....
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 05:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Some observations and opinions.....

Some thoughts and conclusions I've unravelled in the past few days....

"GW stole ma bike"


When I first read the new dex, I was pumped for the bikes, they were going to be my savior. However, If you were expecting these guys to pwn the enemy no questions asked and score back thier (rather high) points cost you will be severly disappointed. The fact is that only 2-3 will survive to get to combat, they will have reletivly few attacks at only moderate strength when they get there and if charging into cover you can lose even more from rough terrain rolls.
However, I do see one neat use for these pups. If you turbo boost on turn 1, you could plop yourself right in your foe's face. They will basically have no choice but to attack you and with that 3+ inv save, you can bet that the enemy will throw all his armor at you. That means your precious rhinos will have a free turn to blaze forward unharmed. Now, most likely those bikes would die, on the off chance 1-2 surive, you can use them to summon a GD and/or demon squads into the heart of the enemy by turn 2 (bear in mind i've been pretty luck with those 4+ rolls :P). Naturally, i'd run that bike squad naked, as they won't have much time to use any of that precious gear.

(I have officialy called this tactic the Syphillis Strike btw)

The sorcerer
I now have mixed feelings about them. I've been running him with a bike and warptime. Now don't get me wrong... 5 attacks on charge with a force weapons is a nice deal, but the problem is that S4. I ran him with a bike squad and then a raptor squad when he had wings. He winds up in both cases without support and winds up dead and alone. I do love that warptime, though my common foe, the Space Marines, prevalince for psychic hoods causes this to lost it's luster. Running him fairly naked with warptime and slapping him a rhino may be a way to go in the future..

Flying DP
This pertains to the psycolgical warfare in 40k. What would you do if you saw a giant withering abomonation flying right towards your line? You'd aim everything you got under the sun at it. A DP without wings is alot better. It drops his threat level. The enemy is less likely to target him meaning when he arrives he's full health, assaults already in place so shooting him is so much harder and he can weigh in a counter assault swinging battles in your favor. An underrated and over looked option.
Give him wings though and your right back to a priority taget meaning you stand a good chance of being dead before the bulk of your army engages..... unless you have somthing else stealing the thunder (ahem bikes.....?)

The Plague Marine
These guys take the cake. FnP is a great boost and reduces your casuality rate by nearly 50%. Blight grenades keeps them alive even more so. Put them in those Rhinos, go 24" in two turns and you'll be right in front of the enemy. The trick now is to distract the enemy.... (see first point)

Squad Size
I have to say 10 marines. Yes 7 is our number but its our troops that will win or lose the battle and they must stay scoring. 10 men is just so much better and who said we had to walk around in such small squads? When we turned to Nurgle we had 20+ man squads, that's how Mortarian trained us, thats how we always fought. This tiny infiltrated special forces rubbish is really not our style... is it? Now 7 squads, thats more like it, but the game only covers the left hand corner of the battle... thats why your only see 3 squads on the table right?... Fluff is all in the creativity ^-^.

Im really tired and my eyes have kind of started to get blurry, maybe more to come tommarow.....
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 06:07   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

How true, other then the daemonprice part BUT it would work if you had at lease 2 squads of bike not 1.
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 07:16   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Well, I saw the flop that would be Nurgle bikers coming from a mile off. Similarly with bikers in general, seeing as how raptors are so much cheaper now.

But I think a few of your other points really depend more on the context of your army as a whole.

For example, I would see a flying DP being better than non-flying in an assault army that uses infiltrating chosen, a raptor squad, and maybe even a second flying DP. Adding wings might be unnecessary, however, in a more static mid-range shooting army.

I personally am not surprised that warptime is not brilliant on a sorcerer. I would only put warptime on a DP. Sorcerers aren't meant primarily for CC, even with the force weapon, so I'd sooner take a Lord with daemon weapon for that purpose. Give the sorcerer Lash, Wind of Chaos or Gift and put him with some raptors, then he'll start showing his worth.
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 12:52   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Syphilis
Some thoughts and conclusions I've unravelled in the past few days....

"GW stole ma bike"


When I first read the new dex, I was pumped for the bikes, they were going to be my savior. However, If you were expecting these guys to pwn the enemy no questions asked and score back thier (rather high) points cost you will be severly disappointed. The fact is that only 2-3 will survive to get to combat, they will have reletivly few attacks at only moderate strength when they get there and if charging into cover you can lose even more from rough terrain rolls.
However, I do see one neat use for these pups. If you turbo boost on turn 1, you could plop yourself right in your foe's face. They will basically have no choice but to attack you and with that 3+ inv save, you can bet that the enemy will throw all his armor at you. That means your precious rhinos will have a free turn to blaze forward unharmed. Now, most likely those bikes would die, on the off chance 1-2 surive, you can use them to summon a GD and/or demon squads into the heart of the enemy by turn 2 (bear in mind i've been pretty luck with those 4+ rolls :P). Naturally, i'd run that bike squad naked, as they won't have much time to use any of that precious gear.

(I have officialy called this tactic the Syphillis Strike btw)
Now imagine the fun if you give them the mark of Tzeentch, which, at least until a FAQ settles it, grants the bikers a 2+ invulnerable when "boosting". Granted, they don't have the T6 of the Nurglessy bikers, but...

Quote:
The sorcerer
I now have mixed feelings about them. I've been running him with a bike and warptime. Now don't get me wrong... 5 attacks on charge with a force weapons is a nice deal, but the problem is that S4. I ran him with a bike squad and then a raptor squad when he had wings. He winds up in both cases without support and winds up dead and alone. I do love that warptime, though my common foe, the Space Marines, prevalince for psychic hoods causes this to lost it's luster. Running him fairly naked with warptime and slapping him a rhino may be a way to go in the future..
What ticks me off is that I can no-longer take a Sorcerer with lightning claws... I know I can take a lord, but I LIKED the option. Now, I'll probably retire my disclord model, and go with my Medusa Sorceror lord in Termie armor... Speaking of Termies, it's a shame the squad champ can't be upgraded to a sorcerer...

Quote:
The Plague Marine
These guys take the cake. FnP is a great boost and reduces your casuality rate by nearly 50%. Blight grenades keeps them alive even more so. Put them in those Rhinos, go 24" in two turns and you'll be right in front of the enemy. The trick now is to distract the enemy.... (see first point)
Perhaps take a few spawn as distractions? As per your flying DP, a unit of these beasties stumbling towards the enemy lines. The added bonus is that if they ignore the Spawn, they're quite capable of tying up enemy squads for a few rounds.
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 13:05   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deneris
Quote:
The Plague Marine
These guys take the cake. FnP is a great boost and reduces your casuality rate by nearly 50%. Blight grenades keeps them alive even more so. Put them in those Rhinos, go 24" in two turns and you'll be right in front of the enemy. The trick now is to distract the enemy.... (see first point)
Perhaps take a few spawn as distractions? As per your flying DP, a unit of these beasties stumbling towards the enemy lines. The added bonus is that if they ignore the Spawn, they're quite capable of tying up enemy squads for a few rounds.
Spawn? Sorry, but how do You plan this? They are even slower than infantry, being slow and purposeful. I'd rather suggest a unit of Possessed, who are very versatile and also much cheaper than spawns (though not as hard, of course).
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 14:12   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

For me I have tested my Nurglites, and there are some good things, there are some mediocre things and there are some dissapointment.

Good things

Bikers:My bikers really burn through the enemy ranks like they are nothing. Of course I used them more defensively. Just letting the hide behind terrain first before counterattacking anything that comes too close.

Plague Lord on bike with Daemon Weapon: Chopped an entire squad of Chosen by himself, and the killed a slaaneshi Sorceror as well. He is just perfect; small enough to be ignored and he is a lean and mean machine that can respond and support my other units whenever they need him.

CSM with MoN: The firebase of 10 troops with missile launcher and Plasma gun is amazing.They made me rather proud as I am able to shoot both infantry and tanks whenever the situation desires it.

Mediocre
Nurglite Terminators with Combi-plasmagun and autocannon: Terminators on the other hand is a rather interesting experience for me. I have used them with the Combi-plasma gun and Reaper autocannon, and they worked like wonders, but they are often wiped out to a single man as a result of their firepower. I have wiped out Obliterators, Deathwing, and loads of other stuff with them but the notion that my squad is just too big (7 in line with Nurgle) is a little tad too big. I think I may run them in squads of 5 next time. Less painful when they die.

Predators: AV 13 makes my tank more vulnerable than ever. But other than that, they supplement my army rather nicely as they provide a a pivotal role as my anti-tank platform and support unit with some speed to support my bikers when necessary (Pred wall). So the Dakka Pred and the tri-las Pred stays in my army.

Dissapointment
Plague Marines: Sadly, they are not for me. FNP and blights are nice, but they need to be more aggressive in order to make them worthwhile and that means rhino rushing them, all guns blazing. And their point cost for 7 guys can by me another squad of 10 CSM with missile launcher and plasma gun+powerfist. And my two toehr armies being a mech force )Mech Tau and MEch SOB), I am rather sick and tired of tons of my troops in vehicles.

My army thread a fine balance of Victory point denial, Table quarter capturing, Hard-hitting shooting troops, and brutal assault force all in one. I must say that I am proud of what I had achieved as Nurglites will often be outnumbered by everything. In addition, I have only 1 HQ slot, 1 Elites, 2 troops, 1 fast attack, and 2 heavy support slots which all total to 7 lost taken in the entire OFC chart, and if you count the bikers as vehicles, I would have three vehicles (1 biker squad with attached Lord) and two Predators. The favoued number of Nurgle and the Three plagues of Nurgle....very thematic indeed.

I am interested to try out every unit in the codex, and thus collecting the miniatures as wel.




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Old 02 Sep 2007, 17:52   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Quote:
I have officialy called this tactic the Syphillis Strike btw
No, just....no. :P

(Sorry for the short post, just dropped in while collecting topics for the newsletter )
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 19:53   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
Plague Marines: Sadly, they are not for me. FNP and blights are nice, but they need to be more aggressive in order to make them worthwhile and that means rhino rushing them, all guns blazing. And their point cost for 7 guys can by me another squad of 10 CSM with missile launcher and plasma gun+powerfist. And my two toehr armies being a mech force )Mech Tau and MEch SOB), I am rather sick and tired of tons of my troops in vehicles.
Gotta disagree here, your paying 4 points more then before for a PM and your getting FNP and blight grenades. thats an improvement IMO. I also prefer to use these new PMs with the same role as 3rd edition PMs: medium range combat. They shrugg off bolter like their spitwads. Same goes for simple CC, basic S4 hits are like a girl punches to new PMs. Powerfists kill everything regardless of FnP or T5 so be wary of that. But I love them they are highly resilliant CSMs, just the way they should be. I have also figured out the best Rhino distraction: Raptors. Send 2 squads of these puppies into the enemy's line with meltas. Cause ruckus while the Rhinos hobble foreward. Its worked pretty well for me so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heastaris, The Glimmering Blade
Quote:
I have officialy called this tactic the Syphillis Strike btw
No, just....no. :P
Yes, just.... yes. Ill head to the patent office on this one, i want a nickel anytime somebody says it ^-^
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Old 02 Sep 2007, 20:39   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Syphilis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisis_Vyper
Plague Marines: Sadly, they are not for me. FNP and blights are nice, but they need to be more aggressive in order to make them worthwhile and that means rhino rushing them, all guns blazing. And their point cost for 7 guys can by me another squad of 10 CSM with missile launcher and plasma gun+powerfist. And my two toehr armies being a mech force )Mech Tau and MEch SOB), I am rather sick and tired of tons of my troops in vehicles.
Gotta disagree here, your paying 4 points more then before for a PM and your getting FNP and blight grenades. thats an improvement IMO. I also prefer to use these new PMs with the same role as 3rd edition PMs: medium range combat. They shrugg off bolter like their spitwads. Same goes for simple CC, basic S4 hits are like a girl punches to new PMs. Powerfists kill everything regardless of FnP or T5 so be wary of that. But I love them they are highly resilliant CSMs, just the way they should be. I have also figured out the best Rhino distraction: Raptors. Send 2 squads of these puppies into the enemy's line with meltas. Cause ruckus while the Rhinos hobble foreward. Its worked pretty well for me so far.
I said earlier that the abilities are nice (and I admit that they are very good indeed), but they do not suit me now as they used to during 3rd edition. In 3rd edition, I can compensate the speed with mass infiltration, but now the only way in which I can use them in the manner I love them is a Rhino rush. If I ever use them I will only use one of them but that is it. You get nauseous once you have to assemble transport after transport after transport.

Another way in which I imagine using them would be to make a 14 man squad (20 maybe) of Plague Marines and just chunk them in a terrain and just hold my ground.Inefficient and ponderous and a big point sink, but it works somehow.

And about the CSMs with MoN and Plague Marines, I have to admit that in terms of survivability the Plague Marines are better. But in terms of versatility, the CSMs are better of, as they can be used to support your units with heavy weapons. Sure I have FNP and Blights, but for the versatility in the offensive CSMs are better off. They do not need to be very close to their targets to use their anti-tank and stuff, and they still benefit from the T5 just fine. I may sacrifice my gun-ho attitude with it, but now I have a more balanced unit.

You are disappointed with Nurglite bikers' survivability, I am disappointed with Plague marine's optimal functionality. It is a 'give and take' attitude on my part. I sacrifice superior defense in favour of versatility and long-range firepower.
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Old 03 Sep 2007, 02:27   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Some observations and opinions.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarius Scorch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deneris
Quote:
The Plague Marine
These guys take the cake. FnP is a great boost and reduces your casuality rate by nearly 50%. Blight grenades keeps them alive even more so. Put them in those Rhinos, go 24" in two turns and you'll be right in front of the enemy. The trick now is to distract the enemy.... (see first point)
Perhaps take a few spawn as distractions? As per your flying DP, a unit of these beasties stumbling towards the enemy lines. The added bonus is that if they ignore the Spawn, they're quite capable of tying up enemy squads for a few rounds.
Spawn? Sorry, but how do You plan this? They are even slower than infantry, being slow and purposeful. I'd rather suggest a unit of Possessed, who are very versatile and also much cheaper than spawns (though not as hard, of course).
Actually, with good rolls, they can move up to 24" per round- a fair bit faster than your non-mounted infantry. I'd take Spawn over possessed, as a lascannon hit will kill a possessed marine (a 5+ invulnerable will only go so far), whereas the spawn will only take a wound .
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