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Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)
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Old 27 Aug 2007, 22:17   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

Chimerical posted this just before the last purge of the databanks. Figured it should be safe to restart it now, as it was a good topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimerical
So I'm kinda struggling with this question...

Let us say your army has no Heavy choices and you have no more than 150 points left to spend on it.

What do you take: Defiler, Vindicator with daemonic possession, or 2 Obliterators forming 2 separate units? And why?
As a former Warsmith of the Iron Warriors, I've used all three units previously. Of course, they've changed a bit with the new Codex, but the basics are similar. Overall, I'd say the choice depends on your style of play.

Defiler
Formerly able to indirect, the Defiler now must be able to "see" it's target. Still useful to park it in as heavy cover as you can, as they attract a fearsome amount of incoming fire. The Defiler is even more attractive as an alternative to the Dreadnought, as the Defiler has no chance of going insane and attacking your own forces. The Defiler is also good as an "objective grabber", as with it's d6 Scuttle (Fleet of iron claw?) instead of shooting, it might be able to grab an objective in the last turn, or granting you the ability to move up to 18" on a good roll/assault move. It's weapon skill (3 in the new Dex) is decent, but it's likely to get pounded by enemy dreadnought equivalents such as Wraithlords, Penitent Engines and SM Dreads. Last bonus- it's a cool model on the tabletop with a myriad of conversion possibilities

Vindicator (With Daemonic Possession)
An excellent line-breaker tank with it's armor 13, and big ol' gun. Like the Defiler, it tends to attract enemy fire, as most players know what it's "pie plate of doom" can do. It's range is shorter than that of the Defiler, and it has only the one main gun (As opposed to a Defiler, which could pack an Autocannon and Havoc Launcher in addition to it's main gun). And, being a tank, the Vindicator doesn't do as well as the Defiler in Close Combat. Most effective if you can somehow hold the enemy in place, or get them in the open, as the Vindicator, like the Defiler, is deadly versus squads in the open. A bonus of the Vindicator over the Defiler is the higher strength and AP (10/AP2, vs 8/AP3) of it's main gun. Model-wise, the Vindicator is essentially a rhino with a huge dozer blade/armored plate on the front. The modelling potential is there, but not as much as for the Defiler.

Obliterators
Formerly T5, but now T4, as well as going up in price. They have an advantage of being able to reach places the average tank/Defiler might not be able. The HUGE advantage of the "Oblit" is the ability to morph weapons from turn to turn, allowing the Chaos player to tailor his firepower to the current threat. Oblits are an excellent choice for tournament or competitive play, as they allow you a variety of weapon options. Another change with the New codex: Oblits now have access to plasma cannons, the bane of AP3 armies. Of course, as with most plasma weaponry, that brings the chance of killing your own men, but with the Oblits +2 save, that should be rare. The Oblits are vulnerable, like most terminator-equivalents, to lascannons and similar weapons, so securing a firing position in heavy cover is always a good plan. They may have difficulty securing objectives due to their low speed and numbers- they tend to get swamped/swarmed by the close combat specialists of opposing armies. I'd suggest giving them a "bodyguard" of Close combat chaos marines. Two one-man units have certain advantages, such as being separate when fired upon and being able to engage two different targets per round. Disadvantages? As mentioned, Oblits tend to get swarmed. Also, solo-Oblits could be considered "miracle shots"- they might get one or two shots off before return enemy fire kills them. As for the models- they're quite nice when assembled, but the assembly can be difficult, as some of the weapon "fingers" are hard to pin/glue into place. The models lend themselves nicely to conversion, as both the heads and arms are separate.

As for choosing, I prefer the Defiler over the other two, but that's just my personal opinion due to how easy the model was to assemble. AND it looks good on the tabletop.
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Old 27 Aug 2007, 23:41   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

Thanks for reposting my question, Deneris.

I haven't purchased any of these models yet, having until now used tank-hunting autocannon havocs and anti-infantry predators.

I was also leaning towards the defiler in comparison to the vindicator. Mainly since the higher strength and lower AP of the vindicator's cannon seems a bit overkill to me in the trade-off for its much shorter range.

My planned army is going to be almost wholly marine infantry - no dreads, termies or monstrous creatures, although I will use a couple of rhinos. So I am guessing that a single Defiler or Vindicator will attract a lot of attention. I'm willing to take the more survivable option.

So, although the vindicator has the better front armour, I am concerned that the need to get it relatively close to the enemy leaves it at the mercy of being flanked and destroyed from the side with anything from strength 7+. Is this the way it's likely to go with a single Vindi?
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Old 28 Aug 2007, 01:27   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimerical
Thanks for reposting my question, Deneris.

I haven't purchased any of these models yet, having until now used tank-hunting autocannon havocs and anti-infantry predators.

I was also leaning towards the defiler in comparison to the vindicator. Mainly since the higher strength and lower AP of the vindicator's cannon seems a bit overkill to me in the trade-off for its much shorter range.

My planned army is going to be almost wholly marine infantry - no dreads, termies or monstrous creatures, although I will use a couple of rhinos. So I am guessing that a single Defiler or Vindicator will attract a lot of attention. I'm willing to take the more survivable option.

So, although the vindicator has the better front armour, I am concerned that the need to get it relatively close to the enemy leaves it at the mercy of being flanked and destroyed from the side with anything from strength 7+. Is this the way it's likely to go with a single Vindi?
No problem- would've reposted it sooner, but real life got in the way.

You're right to be concerned about the sides/rear of the Vindicator- you'll notice most Space Marine players try to shield it with cover, or give it a squad of marines as "bodyguards". That might fit into your "wholly infantry" theme. Granted, a Defiler can also benefit from a "Defiler Defense Squad", as enemies tend to deep-strike/infiltrate close to it.

Actually, all things considered, you might just want to go with your currents "heavies", the Havocs, and maybe give them four MLs (As they're great versus tanks AND infantry), as well as a few "ablative wound" basic squad members to soak up any wounds inflicted on the squad. That way, you can take damage that would kill or cripple a Defiler/Vindicator and STILL dish out some long-range damage...
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Old 28 Aug 2007, 08:04   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

Yeah, an 8-man 4-ML squad is definitely my preference in 1000+ points games and in fact I suppose I could use a 6-man 3-ML squad for similar points cost as the other options I've given.

I suppose I'll try to find a loyalist tactica on the Vindicator bodyguard.

A combination of Defiler with Havocs is tempting me for 2000 point games.

On the topic of the Defiler... Have you ever used its other weapons? Would you replace one or both of the autocannon and heavy flamer with Dread CC weapons?
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Old 28 Aug 2007, 10:49   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

Quote:
On the topic of the Defiler... Have you ever used its other weapons? Would you replace one or both of the autocannon and heavy flamer with Dread CC weapons?
I've only had to use the secondary weapons when the battle cannon gets damaged/blown off. As for WHAT secondary systems to mount on the defiler... What enemies do you fight most often? I'd avoid the heavy flamer unless you NEED to get that close to use it. I've found the Autocannon/Havoc launcher to be a good combo, as they both have decent ranges, and give your defiler room to shoot. I haven't tried the Dread CC weapon option yet, but the strength boost (From basic 6 to dread 10 ) seems like a bonus if you expect to see close-range fighting.
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Old 03 Sep 2007, 04:53   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

Deneris,

This is an excellent overview of these units. +1 Karma for your efforts. A few notes if you don't mind as I have expreimented with all of the above:

Defiler - The new defielr comes into it's own as a CC machine of death. By giving up the Reaper and the Flamer we can boost its A charactersistic to 5! (Thats Six attacks on the charge!!!) You then have your battle cannon for those targets that warrant it, and a vicious little engine of death for onyl 150p! Once stuck in CC, it is protected in the same manner as dreads, and with the sheer weight of attacks it stands a chance of clearing it's kill zone. Remember that those extra combat weaponsa re Dreadnought CC weapons = 6 S10 cc attacks/round that ignore armor...

Vindicator - I have never liked this tank. It has power, but it's short range means that it quickly buys the farm. If some of you disagree, please tell me why? :-/

Oblits - These guys are largely unchanged in usefullness from the last edition, they are a hair more vulnurable, but far more dangerous to tightly packed/deepstriking units. I agree that they shoudl not be taken solo, as their true worth only comes out in a 2 - 3 man barrage.

TTFN,
Ged
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Old 03 Sep 2007, 11:41   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Defiler, Vindicator, or Obliterators? (Originally started by Chimerical)

No problem- I always enjoy the first few weeks of a new Codex, as it allows us to plot and scheme (And possibly grow cheese-based beards ) with all the "new" goodies we're handed.

Just a few further notes:

Defiler: I agree with making it a CC-monster: If you attempt to have it sit back and shoot, it will most likely get fragged by lascannons/brightlances/railguns. Scuttle from cover to cover, then pounce on the enemy lines like a giant spider. My next defiler to build will be a CC-critter...

Vindicator: I'd probably avoid using this tank outside of Cityfights... Or use it if you know you'll just be fighting Nids (Or armies that lack anti-tank ranged weapons). Once again, a maneuverable enemy like Eldar (Damn Vypers) can target your weaker side/rear with a brightlance...

Obliterators: Good idea to use them as an anti-deepstrike squad, Ged. Conversely, deepstriking a squad of three into Space Marine lines can be highly amusing... if short-lived...lol. Excellent for hunting tanks that don't have supporting infantry, these guys would rip up most mechanized forces.
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