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New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 12:13   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Chaos Dreadnought. One of the trademarks of Chaos: a huge monster of metal and bionics, the ultimate close combat fighting machine, and one of the most fluffy units. With the new codex coming up, there will be changes. Big changes. Changes I don't really like.

Even before, I treated my Dreadnaught (named Torgus, BTW) more as a fluffy unit than a really useful one. For less points than a decent Dreadnaught costs you, could get a Predator Annihilator, an excellent tank killer, or a Havocs squad, which can be adjusted to almost any role on the battlefield. Dreadnaughts were sometimes useful, but their erratic behaviour and lack of specialization (other than CC) made them a problematic unit, especially for its cost (basically only 75 points, but you have to double that to make it really useful). Still, it was a nice addition to most Chaos armies, mostly thanks to its sheer fun value.
Now, a Dreadnought seems far less useful than before. Suddenly, it poses a real threat to your own forces, as in Fire Frenzy it shoots the closest unit - no matter its allegiance! This practically rules out using it as a support in any infantry or even armoured assault. It was already problematic before, now it is just plain unreliable - unless you make it "commando dreadnought", which always stays far away from your own forces and hunts the enemy alone, but it's not always possible, especially in larger battles (and smaller tables), and not too fluffy either.
There is more than that. Dreadnought is now more expensive, but weapon upgrades cost less, so it would be more or less the same - provided that you WANT to give it a decent range weapon, as it suddenly may decide to make a hole in your tank instead of enemy's. STILL, due to obliterating most of vehicle armoury, options are much less appealing - especially on the defense (and, particularly that it has a tendency to forget all safety measures and run straight at the enemy). No more Mutated Hull, which means drastic decline of defensive capabilities (especially for a vehicle which is supposed to fight alone and without support). Also, no Daemonic Possession, which means that every hit from a heavy weapon practically immobilizes it. There is Extra Armour, but insanely expensive. Blood Frenzy no longer improves its fighting abilities... No Warp Amp or Blasphemous Rune to help get rid of CC opponents, either... Well, the list is long.

Solutions? There is only one good solution I can think of which allows some practical use of Chaos Dreadnaughts. Dreadclaw drop pods! Make your Dreadnaught close combat specialist, maybe even with two melee weapons, put it in a Dreadclaw, and drop it right on your foes' heads. In this way, you at least have a chance to cause some serious havoc amongst ranks of enemy troops, especially Tau or IG. Another solution is, as I wrote earlier, to separate it from the rest of your forces and hope it survives long enough to do anything useful.

Overall, I am pretty disappointed with the new Dreadnought. I can't say it is useless, but there are Elite units which are better, cheaper, and much easier to manage. Maybe the fact that I only play large battles (2000+ points) is a factor here, but I really can't find any role for my Dreadnought it would fulfill well enough. I'd rather field a Terminator squad for example, which would also have great CC capabilities at a comparable total cost, and they would also be more durable and wouldn't backfire (or simply throw your orders out of the window and charge). I have a Dreadnought model I am really proud of, but it will probably stay on my shelf (also due to all those cool upgrades that are now outdated, like Warp Amp or Havoc).

Any ideas?


PS Thanks to Max Smirnov for coming up with the Dreadclaw idea in the first place.
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Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

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Old 25 Aug 2007, 15:26   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Yeah, I basically agree.

When I heard Dreads rules were being tweaked for the new codex, I was naive enough to think they were going to change them into a reliable unit. Instead they made it more unreliable.

I would only deep-strike them. And I don't like deep-striking, so I'm not likely to use them.
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 15:28   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimerical
Yeah, I basically agree.

When I heard Dreads rules were being tweaked for the new codex, I was naive enough to think they were going to change them into a reliable unit. Instead they made it more unreliable.

I would only deep-strike them. And I don't like deep-striking, so I'm not likely to use them.
Good, I thought I was the only one.
As for using landing pods: AFAIK it's not exactly Deep Strike, because you cannot "telefrag" - if there are enemy troops in the landing place, they get to shoot the pod, but later they have to make way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiznti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak'Ukos
Oh God, not that deamnohunters! :P
Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
My Shas'O, I picture as an old grizzled war vet. However, he has a bit of a gung-ho streak. Think Sun Tzu meets Yeosemite Sam
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 15:43   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Hey fellas
so we have drop pods now am i a fool and have been ignoring this in the last codex or is this new to the new codex (not out in aus yet *cries) either way i from what you have said it seems to be the only viable option really should be a fun tactic to

Cheers steve
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 15:49   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjacob33
Hey fellas
so we have drop pods now am i a fool and have been ignoring this in the last codex or is this new to the new codex (not out in aus yet *cries) either way i from what you have said it seems to be the only viable option really should be a fun tactic to

Cheers steve

It's a Forge World model, although hopes are that GW will release a plastic model soon (in a year or two). It can be seen here.

PS You know, punctuation doesn't hurt.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiznti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak'Ukos
Oh God, not that deamnohunters! :P
Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
My Shas'O, I picture as an old grizzled war vet. However, he has a bit of a gung-ho streak. Think Sun Tzu meets Yeosemite Sam
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 18:27   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Cool model for the dreadclaw, but is it legal? It doesn't say in the new chaos codex that they can be used (which is dumb since SM have drop pods), so can we or can we not field them?
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 18:50   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by korik1
Cool model for the dreadclaw, but is it legal? It doesn't say in the new chaos codex that they can be used (which is dumb since SM have drop pods), so can we or can we not field them?
It is as legal as any Forge World units, which means: relatively legal, and getting better. There are rumours that there are gonna be rules for chaos drop pods in Codex Apocalypse, or shortly afterwards (and possibly even plastic GW models), but nothing is certain here.
Still, Dreadclaw is one hell of a beautiful model, so it won't hurt to get one.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiznti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak'Ukos
Oh God, not that deamnohunters! :P
Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
My Shas'O, I picture as an old grizzled war vet. However, he has a bit of a gung-ho streak. Think Sun Tzu meets Yeosemite Sam
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Old 25 Aug 2007, 20:08   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

It'll hurt my bank account
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Old 26 Aug 2007, 01:33   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarius Scorch
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjacob33
Hey fellas
so we have drop pods now am i a fool and have been ignoring this in the last codex or is this new to the new codex (not out in aus yet *cries) either way i from what you have said it seems to be the only viable option really should be a fun tactic to

Cheers steve
It's a Forge World model, although hopes are that GW will release a plastic model soon (in a year or two). It can be seen here.

PS You know, punctuation doesn't hurt.
Speaking of Forgeworld and Dreads... I finally get two of the Thousand Sons dreads, assemble and paint them, and then the poor guys get nerfed :'(. My normal tactic was to have them sit in my deployment zone, and engage enemies as necessary, even using one with a Mutated Hull as a screening unit for an indirect-firing defiler... Now... *sighs*... no more indirect, and my dreads are more likely to perforate my OWN side :P.
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Old 29 Oct 2007, 17:34   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: New Chaos Dreadnought - different concept or liability?

Apart from drop pods, I am currently testing a new idea to keep a dreadnought in check.
I attached to my battleforce a small, cheap unit of Kroot Mercenaries for about 150 pts (can be cheaper, but let's make it of decent size just in case). These Kroots have only one objective: to stay near the dreadnought as long as possible. If anything happens, they simply take the punishment. If you don't pack them too tightly, they should withstand the plasma/havok/whatever fire and be able to continue their task in the subsequent rounds and if they fail their morale test or simply die, they will at least shield your other units for one round. They can also perform other functions of course, like supporting the dreadnought with their fire or act as a shadow for your Independent Character lurking just behind them (and not too close to the dreadnought of course).
I have only tried this idea once, but it seems to work pretty well; most of the Kroots survived the dreadnought's attacks and stuck to them until they were eradicated by enemy fire. I need to test it a bit more to be sure about this tactics, but I think it should work fine in most cases.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiznti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak'Ukos
Oh God, not that deamnohunters! :P
Who else would fight Choas with Palasma weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Ead
My Shas'O, I picture as an old grizzled war vet. However, he has a bit of a gung-ho streak. Think Sun Tzu meets Yeosemite Sam
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