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Lash of Submission musings and overview
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 04:48   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Lash of Submission musings and overview

LASH of SUBMISSION - HOW WILL IT EFFECT ARMY COMPOSITION

I'm seeing a lot of proposed lists using the Lash of Submission with a winged Slaanesh DP carrying a ubiquitous deamon weapon. This is the epitome speed, power and psychic domination. How exposed will you have to make the DP in order to get LoS and be within 24" of your target though? How hard will it be to take down the DP once it exposes itself? The advantage of the DP is that he does not require squad around him and he is still a monster in CC that attacks ad defends with ferocity. Avoid LoS though and do not let him get tied up in cc fo too many turns. So a DP kicks more but in CC, has more Ws, S, T, A, cannot be instant killed and needs to absorb a lot of shooting to get killed. He's a scoring unit now that can deepstrike and take down tanks. BUT the DP can be picked out by fire much more easily then a sorcerer buried in a squad.


A sorcerer with wings is a very useful choice for Lash of Submission. He is extremely
maneuverable and he can get into cover effectively. You will have to get into 24" LOS which is easy enough to achieve but you will be left open to return fire althogh now he is not targetable directly. He is somewhat effective in close combat although not superlative. He is definately worth spending a 145 points on although you will need a squad for him to join. He is an alternative to the DP although the DP is only 10 points more with the MOS. Being an IC makes him a little more survivable. Still he is T4 and can be insta killed. Once a sorcerer starts moving forward, it is either getting exposed, or needs a unit of ablative armor. That starts getting expensive or you will need to slow down the sorcerer. I'd use a sorcerer with an ablative unit of raptors. They are cheaper now will commonly be added o list anyway to fulfill the role of an excellent counter-assault squad that is useful even without the sorcerer. The ability to hide ICs from shooting just by being near a friendly unit is a very powerful tool.

WHO CARRIES THE LASH ?

What about two Deamon Princes with wings? This is very flexible. You don't have to Lash enemy units every single turn but DPs in cover at the center of the board win Take and Hold Missions, can claim objectives and can create mayhem. Only foolish opponent would bring his enemy units in close proximity to two flying monsters. That is a whole lot of VPs for your side. This is not a defensive use - one Deamon Prince can be killed easily but two DPs workngi unison can assault and win most melees even if facing genestealers, harlequins, et al. You SHOULD win.

A sorcerer IS useful when shielded or buried in other units. This use of the lash will be more defencive either to make sure that no CC units get close to your shootier units o setting up your cannons or setting up the counter-charge. If you want to use the Lash as soon as possible you need to give your sorcerer a bike or wings or steed. You could also use him in combination with infiltrating chosen carrying plasma death but we are starting to get an expensive investment. I like him with the Raptors best.

So both choices have their pros and cons. I can't say that I have clear preference. It will depend largely on how you structure the rest of your list. There are no bad choices here.

HOW WILL LISTS REFLECT THE LASH'S EFFECT

Regardless of which HQ you choose it seems the Lash will be used extensively. With this one power you can build a killer list which rolls over many armies unless they can stop psychic powers consistently. Are we going to have a situation here that will lead to builds that look quite similar and also armies that now incorporate solutions to the Lash? You willneed to take anti-psychic wargear to counter it. So Imperial Armies will have a Psychic Hood, Eldar a Rune of Warding, Tyranids have
Shadow in the Warp. Remember though that the lash would allow you to move an IC who was not attached to a squad. Move the IC to be the closest model and then shoot it getting rid of a psychic hood or other nasty piece of wargear.

Heavy support for Chaos will now be defilers, oblits or vindicators to get the mst use out of their TWO lashes. We can debate the merits of a plasma against a demolisher cannon but really both options will be abusable. Let me repeat that. You can take TWO. You can use it to kill whole squads in one turn of shooting and assault. You can use it to charge on turn one or two. You can use it to pick off high point value models by repositioning them out of cover. You can use it to take squads and push them back for a turn. You can use it to win objective
based games on the last turn. I admit the power is fluffy for Emp's Children. It allows the very shooty Emperors Children to have their way with the enemy by controlling them. The possibilities for using this Psychic power are very abusble and your opponent had best not place a unit within 24" of a lash. This is a power that is going to make the player using it think and the opponent review his tactics and game play. There are a lot of different uses for the ability and their are ways to counter it. Opponents will need to remember its range is limited and it requires LoS. you can asault he sorcerer's squad or even the DP to tie it up. You can position squads so that you can fire on the Lash carrier with weapons that have longer range.

Taking all it limitations into account, the lash is still extremely powerful for its cost. you can flank your opponent and try to pick off dangerous squads with your sorceror backed up by your own Raptors and some Heavy Support pie plates. Or you can choose to support the center and use CSM given marks appropriate to a cc unit - possibly nurgle or khorne. You do not want your lash unit exposed and in LOS of the your opponent's whole army. Push the targets around. Force a valuable unit to a spot where other units can deal with it. Expose these squads to demolition and plsama cannon goodness. Your Dp or sorceror should have 12" movement allowng you set up LoS to a squad within' 36". You ned to coordinate your aproach it this in mind. Good strategy and a synergistic list will allow the Chaos player to maximize the lash's effects.


BASIC TACTICAL APPLICATIONS


1) Assault: Bring the enemy closer so that dedicated cc squads can get the charge and consolidate into the next squad. Two Lashes move the squad closer and then move the same squad closer AGAIN, for those first or second turn assaults. Conceivably you could move up the board assaulting and consolidating. Moving a unit 2D6" closer to your units is powerful. A winged Slaanesh DP now has a 25" range. A sorcerer an raptors now have a 25" range. OpPonents no longer are safe at 18".


2) Pie Plates of Doom: The lash can group the enemy together for plasma cannon and demolition cannon destruction. Clustering and the nailing squads with pie plates will be added to Chaos' arsenal. This is where coordination and strategy will shine. A packed, tight group hit with a pie plate will suffer and should take down four models with a cannon blast. Imagine what two or three blasts can do. Even terminators become prime targets.

3) Sniping: need to remove only a few models? Move the target unit so that only see one or two models are exposed to our melta, plasma et all and pick off Power Fists, Lascannons, etc. This will require careful deployment and movement but it can be achieved.

4) Last Turn Objective denial: Move that unit sitting 4" in your deployment zone at the end of the game or way from any objective counters.

5) Negate Cover: Bring Power armored foes out of cover so that those AP 3 bolters can work. Any enemy unit in LOS attempting to benefit from terrain becomes a prime target when you get Los with the lash. In CoD this can be game breaking.


6) Neutralize Threats: Genestealers an gaunts a problem. Move them out of synapse range or backwards so that you avoid h2h and start shooting. If an enemy unit is coming in to assault move them back. Horde armies won'tget close. CC specialist squads will be moved away. Move those devestators behind LOS blocking terrain so it has to spend a turn repositioning.

DEALING WITH THE LASH

Expect a lot of chaos armies to have a lash. we need to know how to protect yourself from it? Some armies have a wargear you can purchase others will need to readjust lists and spend points for units that can help them. How do you protect yourself from the LASH? How do we spend points on anti-psychic wargear/units?

Let's see what we have;

- IG, SM and Imperial armies can take an Inquisitor from one of the Ordos and use his psychic abilities. SM can get the psychic hood on a librarium as well.
Plan for a nasty counter charge unit that can kill the carriers.
- Tyranids have Shadow in the Warp.
Shadow in the Warp takes up a Tyrant's only psychic power. This is hargdly an ideal solution but Nids are going to suffer
- Eldar have Runes of Warding. Plan for a nasty counter charge unit that can kill the carriers.
While this certainly helps level the field but they are not fool proof solutions. The chaos player might still be able to fire of the lash. Plan for a nasty counter charge unit that can kill the carriers. Elder mech lists will fare much better.
- Tau will have to rely on their skimmers to block loS and their plasma to take out Vindicators. Their Ionheads can target princes.
Sounds good but DPS can get behind the skimmer line and expose valuable units non-the-less. Vindicators can be behind cover. That said a mech Tau list will at least put up a fight.

Is it becoming clear? We need to shoot the carrier, charge the carrier or neutralize the power. Now lets look at he outome of these strategies. Counter charge is not reliable because the lash is going to make it easy to push back your counter charge units. Also the chaos player can just pull units into weapons range and out of cover and blast them. Mounting Works but how do you return fire with the DP on the table? A winged sorcerer is harder to target just as fast and gets the IC rule, and there are two of them. Mech lists have a chance with mobile firepower and you can attempt to DS vet squads or suits. A few landspeeders with multi-meltas can also be useful driving up to the sorcerer's unit. However, if you devote your firepower to killing the carrier, you will leave the rest of the chaos army free to advance and take advantage of the situation. The positive ar tht heavy weapons cost more and you will see ess in the chaos lists so tanks have become viable again.
Snipers are another useful additon to lists. An ]I[ wth psychic hood and a Vindicare assassin can deal even with buried ICs. Will we see these units getting more play?

SUMMARY

This is a power that a lot of players will view as cheesy ' I win the game ' brokenness. Beware - it will require thought in creating a list and coordinated game play tactics to be effective. Good players can abuse it and make nigh unbeatable lists. Average and new players will not benefit as much as a skilled player but do not be mistaken here. Its as abusive a power as Siren - maybe even more so. Don't expect tournament armies without the lash. It becomes a question of how you wish to punish your opponent. Would I use it ? Not in a friendly game without my opponent's consent and awareness of its power.
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 05:10   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

Bebe,

Thats an excellent tactica. Thanks again for saying the things that I cannot. +1 Karma for your time and effort well spent! I would like to add that Sorcerers and Lords on steeds make just as good of use of this power, and that using this tactic to "select" which unit is the "closest" to your Chaos Spawn can also be fun.

Any other thoughts?
Ged
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 05:44   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

I think it is much worse than Siren. I have no idea what the designers were thinking about. It really should have required a Leadership test by the enemy unit for it to work (with some penalty so it wasn't useless). You would have thought they would have learned their lesson by now. The possibilities are staggering to contemplate. I am going to have to start bringing a Librarian whenever I play Chaos, but at least Tau can keep out of LOS pretty well, or stay in vehicles.

But as I understand it, it has the nice advantage of going off before the assault phase and any other shooting. So if you follow the caster with a fast unit, you can move a unit forward, shoot at it, and then use the fast unit to charge the survivors, screening your caster from sight, even if you don't feel like charging in yourself.
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 07:23   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

More broken than Siren? Don't be ridiculous!

[Laughs nervously as he pushes his double Lash army lists under some books.]

But I had a bit of a thought when you were emphasising the fact that you could have two Lashes, bebe. You know how we can now summon Greater Daemons rather more safely, and in addition to two standard HQs? And how we can still infiltrate hard-D'yi power armour? More to the point, you know how the non-khornate Greater Daemons used to get psychic powers of their mark, HAD to get a psychic power to make up for the fact that they weren't Bloodthirsters in combat?

Three Lashes, anyone?
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 14:04   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

Quote:
But as I understand it, it has the nice advantage of going off before the assault phase and any other shooting. So if you follow the caster with a fast unit, you can move a unit forward, shoot at it, and then use the fast unit to charge the survivors, screening your caster from sight, even if you don't feel like charging in yourself.
Yes. As I mentioned an few times - the tactical applications for the lash abound. The notion that you will be able to remove two lash carriers with ease is both erroneous and foolish. I would use your tactic on the flanks as I discussed in the overview. I'm no worried about a new player attempting to outmaneuver me but the lash in the hands of a skilled player ... hmmm ... an entirely different matter.

Quote:
I think it is much worse than Siren. I have no idea what the designers were thinking about. It really should have required a Leadership test by the enemy unit for it to work (with some penalty so it wasn't useless). You would have thought they would have learned their lesson by now. The possibilities are staggering to contemplate. I am going to have to start bringing a Librarian whenever I play Chaos, but at least Tau can keep out of LOS pretty well, or stay in vehicles.
This is really the problem. We are being forced to redesign our lists just to be competitive against a single army a tournament. I remember when the Alaitoc ranger disruption tables were heavily played and I resented the sheer ludicrousness of those armies as well. Tau are not immune ... you can hide in vehicles but Chaos will set the list to deal with vehicles knowing that they might become mandatory requirements.

Quote:
I would like to add that Sorcerers and Lords on steeds make just as good of use of this power, and that using this tactic to "select" which unit is the "closest" to your Chaos Spawn can also be fun.
I know a few players are considering sorcerers on bikes. Th trick is to find the unit that can keep up with the lash carrier without spending points on a squad you would not normally want in your list. Personally I think Raptors are best suited for this purpose. I never considered Chaos Spawn tactics. It just highlights the fact that this power has numerous applications that border on broken.

On another note - I've added another section to dissect the various approaches to carrying the lash.
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 15:32   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

Forgive my ignorance as I have only seen the chaos codex once, but I can't remember the daemon prince having the option to take the lash of submission, I thought it was only the Chaos Lord, could someone with the codex debunk this for me?
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Old 19 Aug 2007, 15:50   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

A daemon prince can take it, but he has to have the mark of slaanesh, which is rather cheap pts wise
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Old 20 Aug 2007, 19:19   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

[Edit:] As I reviewed this topic more carefully, it appears that I mistook the Lash of Submission for a Daemon Weapon, when actually it is a psychic power! My bad folks. :-[
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Old 20 Aug 2007, 19:53   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

What about moving an enemy unit to touch the board edge and disappear? Does it just say "unit", because if so that'll work on vehicles as well and you can move them to get rear armor shots. How about moving a unit in all different directions so that its out of coherency?
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Old 20 Aug 2007, 20:18   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lash of Submission musings and overview

Good review.
To wit, I highly respect the tactical applications and advantages of the Lash but I hesitate to compare it to Siren. I can see potential for abuse if players don't cover 25% of the board with terrain like they should. :

However, the lash has a few things going against it:

a) It is completely random. I don't see it being a consistent turn one/two game-ender in this regard because you don't know if you'll get a good enough roll to do what you want with it.

b) Thankfully, there is no way a DP or sorcerer would be able to use lash plus another shooting power.

c) Thankfully, you'll only have to deal with two lashes at the most...

d) ...And if the current trends on the internet forecast, it can be dealt with. Despite the immunity to instant kill, the DP is far easier to take out than most other MCs. I would fear the lash more on a Sorcerer than a DP because he's an IC IMHO.

e) As mentioned above, if you play with the proper amount of terrain, it's effectiveness can be greatly reduced because of LOS issues. Siren didn't have this problem, and it could be used on DP's and Lords that could be tooled up to more powerful levels in the previous dex.

That being said, as is a trend in 4th edition, Chaos joins Eldar and Space Marines as another opponent that seriously warrants anti-psyker doctrine as the other powers are really good too.

BTW, just to give everyone a heads up, there is a legion of players, at least on the internet, that apparently either don't own the BGB or don't read it. Ignore the screams for this power to be FAQ'ed in other forums. I'll break down the two biggest contentions like this:

Issue #1: Can Lash of Submission be used on enemy units in close combat? :-X
Answer #1: No. Page 52, heading Psychic Powers, 5th paragraph, states that unless indicated otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to all shooting rules. Meaning LOS, Target Priority, cannot target enemy units not in CC, etc. (Which is another blessing) I can say with 100% certainty that the rules for Lash do not indicate otherwise.

Issue#2: Do I have to move it the full distance?
Answer #2: Yes. The rule says the victim is moved 2d6", not moved up to.

The only thing that requires a FAQ as I can tell is how Jump Infantry and Jetbikes are dealt with. Both have the option of avoiding a dangerous terrain test. I would assume that the player controlling them determines this, but RAW does not indicate so.

So, if you go to a tournament or play any game against these kinds of players, make sure you have a copy of the codex and the BGB so you can promptly halt such ambitions.
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