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DG and Rhinos as heavy support
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Old 04 Jun 2007, 03:08   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default DG and Rhinos as heavy support

If indeed infiltrate will be nerfed in new codex its time to revisit some rhino tactics for DG.

RHINOS and Deathguard

7 Havocs, bolters, 4 plasmaguns, Asp with plasma pistol
and power sword tank hunter
Rhino - choose upgrades

How we use it:

Well we have 8 Strength 8 Ap2 shots at close range and
a rhino for cover once disembarked. The the havocs in the
rhino will be disembarked on the first turn so the turn
after your movement should place them six inches away
from a juicy target to rapid fire.

The havocs in the rhino are used to wreck havoc in the
centre of your opponent's army. This can dramatically impact
your opponents tactics. Send the plasma havocs at full speed
into the heart of the enemy and toast his most expensive
vehicle, squad or transport. Plasma with tank hunter gives
8 S8 shots at 12" against a vehicle, Even a land raider isn't
safe.

Remember what I said about using the rhino as a screen? Once
you take out your primary target move them around and cause
as much havoc ( yes a pun ) as possible. They will create a
major distraction and allow the rest of your troops to position
themselves for the best tactical advantage.

These are marines - do not be afraid to assault if you have to
and tie up an important squad if necessary. The resilience of
the Death Guard is fantastic. A squad can shrug off small
arms fire like nothing else. A toughness value of 5 and a 3+ save
are a great combination.

Important to note the Havocs will be your only anti-tank unit,
so deploy them wisely. They are equipped with plasma guns so that,
in the event of a dearth of vehicles, they can be effective at
thinning out troops instead.

So much for the pros, Its important to note that swarm armies
are not threatened by your plasma tank. Terminators, Meqs and
MCs hate them but no swarms. A well balanced list
might want to use a second tank armed with flamers ...

7 Marines, pistols, 2 flamers, Asp power fist

As well you can also get yourself a squad of possessed
with talons in a Rhino. In a smaller game (1500) you can
have alt join them ... a lieutenent with Manreaper and
a few gifts runs around 125 points. With Daemonic Talons
and Rhino transport they are probably one of the most
devastating units in the army.

Unfortunately rumor has it that we will no longer have the
option to infiltrate troops with the new codex. Its tie to start
looking at configurations for mounted squads. DG pop out and rapid
fire into the enemies ranks, and the enemy has a hard
time trying to kill them because of their high toughness.

Having a few rhinos lets you attack in waves. Now DG are an
infantry based army. True tanks are scorned by DG but
rhinos fit the fluff fine. Lets face it - if rumors are true
we will have to foot slog across the table against shooty
armies. We need to take troops in rhinos as fast attack choices
and really we have nothing else to fit the slot anyway.

DG The death Guard are a rapid fire or closer army so play them
like that. Run them forward, blaze away with bolters and plasma,
and assault whatever is left. Get your possessed into H2H as quick
as possible. It would be nice to give as many of them the Infiltrate
skill as possible, so they were able to close with the enemy sooner.
However if this option is not available we have our rhinos. In fact
even if missions allow infiltrate rhinos still have their niche.

The real decision will be how many rhinos we use and what upgrades
we give them. Do we take two squads of Havocs? Do we use our fast attack
squad for another rhino? Have we got the points for a squad
of possessed? We can fill out the troop choices with advancing marines
or Nurglings are always great advancing in waves. In lower point
games maybe just two squads of mounted havocs, some nurglings,
a lt not over gifted, and plasma and melta weapons in your
troop squad.


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Old 04 Jun 2007, 12:53   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

i wouldnt be so sure about not infiltrating, in the IA5 preview it has stats for chaos renegades and you can take 'Alpha legion' marines that have infiltrate as elites choices, but they do not get daemonic gifts :-[
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Old 04 Jun 2007, 12:58   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

We are talking about DG though. Cult troops are supposedly losing this ability - of course it could be just false rumors. Regardless, the tactic is solid on many levels.
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 15:15   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

It seems a bit unfair that chaos who are 10,000 year veterans are losing infiltrate when guardsmen with 'light infantry' and marines with 'see but dont be seen' can infiltrate.
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 17:11   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

Bebe,

Excellent Writeup, (+1 Karma) but why plasma and not melta? Plasma weapons seem to defeat your primary advantage: T5. Your Plasma Marines are just as suseptable to plasma burn as everyone else, especially considering the rules on rapid-firing plasma. Unless this squad is intended as a Suicide Squad it seems like a terrible waste. Your first and second volleys will (Statistically) cost you a plasma gunner each time.
This being said, why wouldn't you use Meltaguns in this role? Sure you lose some volume of fire, but you gain the confidence that you won't burn your own people.

Ged
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 17:22   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor Sian Kytonus (Ged)
This being said, why wouldn't you use Meltaguns in this role? Sure you lose some volume of fire, but you gain the confidence that you won't burn your own people.

Ged
Because the game isn't long enough nor do you shoot enough targets to really need to worry about that. How many times will that plasma get to shoot: once probably. Think about your games and how many of the 6 turns you get, that your 12" weapons get to actually shoot something. Now ask yourself, is the burn worth the extra 2 possible kills? Oh yes. Yes it is. And the burn from the plasma isn't so bad--you have a 3+ save to ignore it with. Those are great odds as a `drawback' for twice the firepower. StormTroopers on the other hand are not so hot with Plasma, due to their 4+ save and their rotteness in assault; so meltas are better on them. But in the hands of marines, plasma is basically always better (it's even better at anti-tank in general). Consider this: plasma is as good, and better, as normal bolters when firing as massed target--meltaguns reduce your effectiveness against low end T3 weenies with no armor; plasma does not. 4 plasma shots is better against heavier infantry than 2 melta shots, always. 4 plasma shots is better against monstrous creatures, always. 4 plasma shots yield more average damage against armor, except for A14 (unless you have tank hunters). The drawback of plasma being the odds that you won't pass a 3+ save. Plasma is indeed the best choice for the competitive gamer.

Plasma is love.

Very best,
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 17:38   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

I was about to say the same thing worded much less effectively. Thanks, Mal. Always plasma over melta in DG mounted squads. Volume of fire is very important as you likely will be assaulting or assaulted after the first volley.
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 18:56   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebe
I was about to say the same thing worded much less effectively. Thanks, Mal. Always plasma over melta in DG mounted squads. Volume of fire is very important as you likely will be assaulting or assaulted after the first volley.
Aye,

You and I recall this thread, but others may not; the debate on plasma or melta applies here just as well and can be beneficial as a 2nd read to go along with this thread:

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...#msg1058141773

Cheers,
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 20:24   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor Sian Kytonus (Ged)
Bebe,
Your Plasma Marines are just as suseptable to plasma burn as everyone else, especially considering the rules on rapid-firing plasma. Unless this squad is intended as a Suicide Squad it seems like a terrible waste.
Ged
Here Here!!!

My new tactics run around the concept of CC PMs rather than medium range, though I do field a 'kamakazee' squad of plasma infiltrators. If they do nerf infiltration (which makes no sense given that DG are infantry men) Bebe, your tactics are fairly solid..
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Old 05 Jun 2007, 21:24   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: DG and Rhinos as heavy support

Quote:
though I do field a 'kamakazee' squad of plasma infiltrators
I guess this where we differ. I don't look at my havocs as a kamakazee squad but rather as a very versatile one. Ican target tanks, I can rapd fire and assault with them, and I feel the odds favour them surviving a few turns if I position my Rhino well. But then alot depends on who you are playing against and the makeup of the rest of your army. 4th addition favours a mobile force and although the rhino rush is dead, a little speed up the midle can be benificial. It requires solid deployment of your forces though.
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