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Help please, chaos newbie
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Old 30 May 2007, 21:04   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Help please, chaos newbie

Hi, I am starting up a new chaos army and havenít played 40k for just under a year now. I have also never played chaos. I realize that this means I am probably going to make a bunch of newb mistakes. The only solution I could come up with is to turn to my brothers in corruption to learn the secrets of how best to subjugate the galaxy. I wanted a couple of choppy khorne berserkers to lead the charge, backed by a powerful melee chaos lord and a bloodthirster daemon waiting to get summoned once they hit the line. I also love obliterators, so I wanted a full company of them backed by some havocs or maybe a chaos predator or defiler. I was also thinking of putting a dreadnought in to make the list more choppy. The only concrete things I know I definitely will have are the thirster, the oblits and my lord. I really would appreciate any input here at all so shoot me as many or as little thoughts as you can spare. I had 2 configurations set up for the lord:

Daemonic Stature
Daemonic Strength
Daemonic Mutation
Daemonic Resilience
Mark of Khorne
Feel No Pain-
Berserker Glaive-

I think that gives him a stat line as follows:
Ws-6 Bs-3 S-6 T-6 W-3 I-5 A-8 Ld-10 Sv-3+/4+

The second lord configuration was as follows.

Daemonic Stature
Daemonic Mutation
Daemonic Aura
Daemonic Speed cavalry-
Dreadaxe ignore save
Mark of Khorne,
*Feel No Pain-
*Rage of Khorne-
*-which ever works best.

stats here should look like this i beleive.
Ws-6 Bs-3 S-5 T-5 W-3 I-5 A-5 Ld-10 Sv-3+/5+

the second is faster and might get the same number of attacks on the charge if rage of khorne is taken, but the first has a better stat line and better saves. the second also will ignore armor and invulnerable saves due to monsterous size and the axe with wounds on a 4+ at worst. please help me out here, i am really stuck. sorry for the lengthy post* *:-\

*sorry for the infringments posted earlier, much thanks to ged for pointing them out and correcting them, it will not happen again
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Old 30 May 2007, 21:10   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

Lovefist,

Please refrain from posting exact point values and rules for characters and Wargear. This is both against the forum rules and infringes upon GW's copyright. (For which we can be fined/shut down) Please take a moment to look over the forum rules, as to some of my brethern: Ignorance is not an excuse.

Thanks,
Ged

EDIT: As per our previous discussion the first version is powerful, but uncontrolled. He can be "kited" by fast-moving units and kept away from the enemy battle line if your opponent is savvy.
The second version, while it gets fewer attacks, is phenominally powerful and can handle anything thrown at it. If it were me I'd go with the second prince.

Hope that helps,
Ged
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Old 30 May 2007, 22:17   #3 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

I like your second prince, although I must admit your first prince is pretty much my setup with a few changes.
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Old 31 May 2007, 00:36   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

ok, so i worked out some statistics with both lord stats. i worked out these calculations using an even distribution for all dice rolls. i also assumed that all shots would penetrate normal armor as both lords have the same armor value so those saves would be basicly cancelled out in any contest between the two.
i assumed that both lords would have a total of 60 shots fired at them with a bs of 4, this means that around 40 hit. i did multiple strengths(5-10) but for simplicity i will list the median value, 7. for t5 34 cause wounds, for t6 27 cause wounds. the lord with t6 also has a 4+ save to drop his wounds to 14, while the t5 with a 5+ goes down to 23. if i take fnp on both then that doesnt matter but if just one has it( meaning the t6 4+ one) then that lord will drop to 7 wounds taken.i also wanted to check and make sure i understand the movement benefits correctly. the one with the glaive could go up to 12" in the move phase and 6" in assault, while the speed one could go 12" in move and 12" in assault?
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Open faced
Knuckle sandwich

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Old 31 May 2007, 00:45   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
ok, so i worked out some statistics with both lord stats. i worked out these calculations using an even distribution for all dice rolls. i also assumed that all shots would penetrate normal armor as both lords have the same armor value so those saves would be basicly cancelled out in any contest between the two.
i assumed that both lords would have a total of 60 shots fired at them with a bs of 4, this means that around 40 hit. i did multiple strengths(5-10) but for simplicity i will list the median value, 7. for t5 34 cause wounds, for t6 27 cause wounds. the lord with t6 also has a 4+ save to drop his wounds to 14, while the t5 with a 5+ goes down to 23. if i take fnp on both then that doesnt matter but if just one has it( meaning the t6 4+ one) then that lord will drop to 7 wounds taken.i also wanted to check and make sure i understand the movement benefits correctly. the one with the glaive could go up to 12" in the move phase and 6" in assault, while the speed one could go 12" in move and 12" in assault?
Lovefist,

Close: The numbers for each are modified by random results of their die rolls. For each random d6 consider the average to be 3.5 for the purposes of "mathhammer". So 9.5" and 6" vs. 9.5 and 12". Feel no Pain is decidedly worth it no matter how you slice it though.

Ged
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Old 31 May 2007, 05:42   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

well im gonna roll the second daemon prince and see how he does in game. the list i had in mind was gonna look somehting like this:

HQ
Daemon Prince
Bloodthirster

Elites
Obliterator Cult
plague marines
tzeentch automatons

Troops
khorne serks
khorne serks

Heavy Support
dreadnought
dreadnought
predator

again this is a very rough list, i havent even looked at point values or anything, any suggestions would be welcome. also i was thinking of modeling the daemon speed on the prince by using four defiler legs, does anyone have any idea how good that would work?
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92% of teens have moved onto rap. If you are part of the 8% that still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your sig.

Mr. Bungle
"Love is a Fist"

I feel strongly about violence
Love is a fist

There's no effort
To what's in
Open faced
Knuckle sandwich

I feel strongly about violence

Love is a fist

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Old 31 May 2007, 13:10   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

Lovefist,

This is the PM that I asked to post here in reference to your Lord and general advise:

Lovefist,

It's not that the Lord won't reach and/or deliver death to thine foes, it's that he is uncontrollable thanks to the rules surrounding your berzerker glaive. (Considered by many vets to be the worst Daemon Weapon in the codex!) All your opponent has to do is make sure that the nearest unit to him is either a fast skimmer, or a swift infantry model and your nearly 200p Lord will be chasing him around for the whole game and accomplish nothing.
The Bloodthirster wouldn't arrive until at least round two, (and even with Daemon-Chains probably not until round three!) and the thin armor of the dread means that it will quiskly become Lascannon-bait. If you are talking a 1500p list, you have over a third of your army tied up in three either uncontrollable, or quite vulnurable models. Please be careful.
Advise huh... 2 things then: Force Composition %'s are probably worth a look. When I design an army, I follow the following rule of thumb for % of points/selection:
(This can be broken, but if you go over double the reccomended % you can get into trouble!)
HQ: 10% or less
ELITES: 20% or less
TROOPS: 20% or more (but at least 20%)
FAST ATTCK: 20% or Less
HEAVY SUPPORT: 20% or less

This mix will give you a flavorful and fluffy army, and usually keeps you in enough bodies to be useful. You can also mix and match is a selection is "being used as" another selection. Example: You're Bloodthirster could be considered "Fast Attack".
So to use your above list of models, you'd want them to be used in a 2000 point army:
HQ: Daemon Prince = almost 200p or 10% of 2000p
EL: Khorney Termies or Possessed?
TROOPS: Lots of Berzerkers and Bloodletters?
FA: Your Bloodthirster is being used as an FA choice when you think about it, so it almost fits in a 2000p list. It has enough wiggle-room to not hurt you.
HS: The Dreadnought fits here even in a 1000p list, plenty of room in 2k!
Remember that when you focus too much of your army on non-scoring units like the Bloodthirster and your Lord, that you are leaving yourself open to disaster against more diversified forces, so in anything less than a 2000p list you are asking for trouble by deploying both.

2) Listen to FT ("Lord Arnell"), his armies are consistently fluffy AND effective. The best way to get his attention is simply to post about Khorne in the Chaos Board (Easy huh?) The next best way is to post in the Cult of Khorne recruitment thread.

TTFN,
Ged
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Old 31 May 2007, 22:33   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

thanks for the help guys, any ideas on the modelling or the list posted above?
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92% of teens have moved onto rap. If you are part of the 8% that still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your sig.

Mr. Bungle
"Love is a Fist"

I feel strongly about violence
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Open faced
Knuckle sandwich

I feel strongly about violence

Love is a fist

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Old 31 May 2007, 23:00   #9 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
2) Listen to FT ("Lord Arnell"), his armies are consistently fluffy AND effective. The best way to get his attention is simply to post about Khorne in the Chaos Board (Easy huh?) The next best way is to post in the Cult of Khorne recruitment thread.
Or just send me a PM, that usually works too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
well im gonna roll the second daemon prince and see how he does in game. the list i had in mind was gonna look somehting like this:
Best way to do it really although I'd proxy the Lord before modeling their respective weapons (unless your really crafty and model it so it could be either )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
HQ
Daemon Prince
Bloodthirster
If your going down this route of two massively expensive HQ's (I'm estimating your Lord setup to be about 165 points here btw) your spending over 500 points on HQ, which is a 1/4 of your 2k total. It'd aim for about 10-20% of the total at max, although don't take that as gospel .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
Elites
Obliterator Cult
plague marines
tzeentch automatons
Heres the biggest problem with the list is right here. The way I understand the rules for Marks is that you can only ever have two marks. The rules as I understand them is that if you include any models with the Mark of Khorne, you can't include any Slaaneshi troops and the same with Nurgle vs Tzeentch. Therefore your free to mix two marks together (Khorne and Nurgle or Tzeentch for example).

Basicaly the point is I'm making is you have to drop either the Nurgle or Tzeentch marked troops out of the list, although that is a tough decision. Plague troops will compliment your Khorne nicely, but the Tzeentch would provide some interesting choices and may be used to hunt the Skimmer "distractions" so many players think will completely void your Khorne army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
Troops
khorne serks
khorne serks
What sort of unit sizes are you thinking of here? I'd recommend unit sizes of about 7 and above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
Heavy Support
dreadnought
dreadnought
predator
Consider giving your Dreads Destroyer upgrade (unless your going down the shooty route with them ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
again this is a very rough list, i havent even looked at point values or anything, any suggestions would be welcome. also i was thinking of modeling the daemon speed on the prince by using four defiler legs, does anyone have any idea how good that would work?
Well, just because with the defiler leg idea because your regular opponents might confuse it for bionics, although I do like your idea. You could also base it on a WFB Shaggoth which would be an interesting conversion too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovefist
thanks for the help guys, any ideas on the modelling or the list posted above?
Depends upon your tastes really. At least one pack of Khorne Berserkers is a must, although you can get away with using standard CSM boxed sets and tooling them up for Khornate combat. And if your looking for interesting conversions, consider mixing Chaos bits with Beastman bits and they do look good if you mix them with WFB Marauder bits too. In fact Berserkers look quite good if your give them flails (which fits the theme in my opinion too, with Khorne not being particular subtle in their dealings with others ).
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Old 01 Jun 2007, 06:31   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Help please, chaos newbie

ok, so the hq thing, i was gonna try and use the faster hq choices and omit the fast attack section, but again im a newb and dont know how well that would work. i was thinking of ommiting the nurgle marks so my couple of tzeentch marine squads could be really shooty with infero bolts for the aoe damage on em. my idea was to have the khorne faction, lead by the prince and bloodthirster, rush at the enemy whilst being covered by some nice ranged firepower. i thought tzeentch would work nicely along with the oblits and predator. would the defiler legs be ok as long as i informed my oppenent as to their meaning before game? now that i got the idea i am kinda stuck on it. the other thing is im not to "victory points" savvy. the chart says i get points for ripping their stuff up, and for scoring units. does that mean that when the game ends i get points for every one of my scoring units still on the table? do i still get points for the damage my ICs do? is the dreadaxe 1h or 2h? can i give my lord another cc wep to boost his attacks? much thanks to everyone for their valued input*
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92% of teens have moved onto rap. If you are part of the 8% that still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your sig.

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I feel strongly about violence
Love is a fist

There's no effort
To what's in
Open faced
Knuckle sandwich

I feel strongly about violence

Love is a fist

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