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Deathguard reflections
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Old 29 May 2007, 23:04   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Deathguard reflections


Recently, I've noticed some issues in some of the most common vanguards in deathguard lists. Ive gone up against alot of eldar recently as well, it has helped flush out alot of the holes in my list (especially with the GD coming up) Just food for thought mostly.


1. Infiltration is no substitute for vehicles.
Theoretically, you should be able to get into close combat at the end of your 2nd turn when you use Infiltrators. This, however, is rarely the case. Footslogging troops that far out in front of your lines are nothing but dogmeat for your opponents fast attack troops. When facing Eldar, you will immediately be the target of quite a lot of heavy weapons fire (specifically the units that youre trying to neutralize such as Dark Reapers, Wraithlords, Warwalkers, Vypers, Platforms..), and then you will be run down in the assault phase by their fast attack units such as Jetbikes and warpspiders. Not only that, but after one turn of movement you will be within range of the meatscreen's weaponry and assault. You will not reach your target, you'll never get to use your melta guns, you will not get to charge, and they will be neutralized by the end of turn 2, before the rest of your force even arrives.
Vehicles completely change the situation, especially when your vanguard unit is mounted in a Land Raider. First of all, squads in vehicles are immune to small weapons fire and protected from heavy weapons fire. On foot your Plague Marines can be culled by large amounts of shiruken catapults, but they are completely immune to them when mounted in even a rhino. Second, squads cannot be assaulted and tied up when in a vehicle, so you will be able to push onto your target unit without being intercepted by fast attack units. Third, vehicles let you use tank shock. Sometimes your target is beyond the meatscreen, and so tankshock allows you to plow right through it to your objective. Fourth, once you get inside the vehicle provides extra firepower, cover, and added disruption to your enemy's formation. Are you going to get assaulted by those howling banshees on the next turn? Drive your rhino in the howling banshees way and protect your unit. Going to get killed by those dark reapers in the next shooting phase? Drive the rhino in the line of fire and protect your unit. In one game I actually "circled the wagons" and prevented a counter-charge from reaching me, and then charged them in the next turn annihilating 2 more units and routing one.

2. Powerfists give your opponent an opportunity to kill your troops.
The formation given for the vanguard Havoc squad is specifically designed to dish out a terrifying amount of damage very quickly, so as to annihilate their opponents before they get the chance to attack you back. Furious Charge boosts their initiative to 5, which will match you with aspect warriors and will beat most other eldar units. Against most other armies, however, you'll always beat them. A Powerfist always attacks last, and so your most powerful attacker in close combat is going to let the enemy attack first before he gets his shots in. He's going to be a big target for enemy characters and so might go down before being able to deliver a blow. Lightning claws work better than powerfists and still give you your initiative, take them instead. Even a plaguesword or power weapon would be better.

3. Daemons are unreliable.
Pushing forward with a unit with an icon and materializing daemons inside their lines is a tactic known as the Daemon Bomb. In my opinion it is the most effective way to use daemons, as they are specifically designed for Daemon Bombing. However, I don't use daemons in my army because they are so, well, chaotic. First of all you have to roll to see if they're even available to materialize, and the turn that you're going to want to summon them on is the turn that they're least likely to arrive. Then, when they get there, they scatter and you can wind up loosing whole units of daemons when they scatter off the board or onto impassible terrain or enemy units. Finally, they suffer from Instability and will start taking massive casualties on turns when they loose the combat and so are really only good for about 2 turns before they are completely gone. They will do some damage, but I'd strongly advise that you spend your points on more Plague Marines as they will stick around and not much can go wrong with them.

4. Plasmaguns are bad news.
I realize that plasmas are the traditional special weapon for the Death Guard, but in the 4th edition rules they aren't that great. First of all, the new Gets Hot rule increases the likelihood of your plasma gun armed troops of blowing themselves up. Second, they are now rapid fire weapons and firing them at all prevents you from assaulting. When moving forward you'll only be able to fire 12" anyway. Plasma guns and melta guns cost the same number of points, melta guns are stronger and hurt vehicles more, and they are assault weapons. Its ridiculous to use Plasmas unless the unit is stationary and defending an area.
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Old 29 May 2007, 23:43   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Deathguard reflections

I agree with all these points. I have found my self wishing for a power sword here and there. Also tanks rule for death guard with there ability for medium fire power, and also flamers up close usally kill more MEQ and GEQ but not TEQ. But if going against TEQ I say use meltas for that instant kill and high ap. Good suggestions Plague lord let all the new plague marine follow in you foot steps (and mine too)

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Old 29 May 2007, 23:46   #3 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Deathguard reflections

Indeed, your observations are pretty good in my book

1. I play Khorne, so massed Infiltrators have never been any real option for me, and the times when I have used Infiltrate, they have been limited to a couple of squads.
2. It has only been my recent armies that I've experimented with massed power fists and in my experience, they are generally a bad idea, and I favour power weapons over fists due to the fact that I also take a large number of furious chargers and the added +1 I wasted
3. Don't like daemons much myself lol
4. Meltaguns are much better in this respect being assault weapons, and I would only limit myself to a squad of havocs armed with plasma guns. Alternatively, you could also go with plasma pistols instead of guns to get around that problem.
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Old 30 May 2007, 03:24   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Deathguard reflections

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer Tyross
Indeed, your observations are pretty good in my book

1. I play Khorne, so massed Infiltrators have never been any real option for me, and the times when I have used Infiltrate, they have been limited to a couple of squads.
2. It has only been my recent armies that I've experimented with massed power fists and in my experience, they are generally a bad idea, and I favour power weapons over fists due to the fact that I also take a large number of furious chargers and the added +1 I wasted
3. Don't like daemons much myself lol
4. Meltaguns are much better in this respect being assault weapons, and I would only limit myself to a squad of havocs armed with plasma guns. Alternatively, you could also go with plasma pistols instead of guns to get around that problem.
Alot of stuff to think about, alot of these changes i'm not going to make until the new codex. Plasma pistols are a joke, I dont like them, I have never used them, and I never will use them. Meltas are looking better and better- unless Deathguard are allowed to take heavy bolters; one of the few things im hoping for in the new 'dex. One of the few reasons I still like infiltration is because I love to use PMs as medium range firepower, also a reason to gamble with plasmas. I may do some playtesting soon (with meltas and lightning claws).
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Old 30 May 2007, 04:25   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Deathguard reflections

Sitarangi,

This is an excellent alternate stance on things that have become staples of the DG lists here on TO. It's a breath of fresh air in a pestilent wind, but a nessesary one. Thanks for these well-thought-out tactica. I myself disagree with your opinion of the Buried powerfists, I find that Plague Marines tend to be tough enough to stay alive and allow the fist to do it's thing. Considering the profusion of Meltaguns in your lists however, I can see where the powerfist's "punch" vs. MC's and Vehicles becomes much less nessesary, and the use of a Power Weapon and D. Strength at the same cost does seem well advised. (Yes I realize I just contradicted myself, I'm just saying that both sides of the equation are valid! )
I couldn't agree more on the Plasmagun issue though. Your greatest advantage is your sheer toughness, and DG are just as suceptable to plasma-burn as a T3 Character! This coupled with the assault weapon status of the meltagun make's it a far better choice for DG.

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Old 30 May 2007, 17:00   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Deathguard reflections

Thanks for the karma cookie Ged, I plan on making some rather unconventional lists based upon my observations and playtesting them in the future. Ill post them here.
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Old 02 Jun 2007, 21:38   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Deathguard reflections

Sweet!

Deathguard are perfect for mechanized assault. Good analysis.

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