[march10k]

I know ksons are supposed to be sorcerous and have tons of slow an pourposeful suits of dust running around...but I'm planning a ksons army that depends more on minor daemons. But before I go spending $300+, I wanted to get some opinions on how well it's likely to work.

HQ:

2 relatively cheap fast moving characters (at least one on a disc, the other maybe with speed instead) capable of summoning. One shooty (BoC or Kai gun), one assaulty (the speed one, if I don't do two discs).

Troops:

9 marines with BoC champ.

9 or 18 flamers

Fast attack:

9 or 18 screamers

Heavies:

1-2 predators

Defiler

Thoughts? I friggin love flamers of tzeench, but I'm not sure how good the screamers would be. I think the list above is around 1500 points if you stick to 9 of each type of daemon...

[MalVeauX]

Hey man,

1k Sons as a pure force can be very limited. And one of the pit falls of it, is adhering to the sacred numbers and ending up with very limited units in small supply whom eat loads of points while doing it. But no worries; you can move things around and still have a competitive army on you hands--though realistically, it will very rarely be as competitive as say, a Slaneesh or Nurgle force would be on the same level. It's just one of those things GW didn't think enough about.

Anyhow, list:

HQ1 - A small speed lord would be best for assault. The reason is, models with daemonic speed (non-stature) are allowed to be fielded turn one in escalation matches. That's your ticket to assault. Cheap and easy will win the day.

HQ2 - Going with a shooty 2nd lt would be ok on a disc, but it's a steed and cannot be fielded turn one in escalation matches. So keep that in mind. Personally I would go for two assault based cheap HQs to make the most of them, while allowing your other units do the shooting and surviving. Remember, it's hard to stay untargetable and shoot when your other units are way slower than you are.

Troop1 - 9 marines with the champion is the pit fall. It's good to have one unit perhaps, but this is an army that needs rhinos or else they simply aren't a big factor in the competitive game. I would lower them to 6 models, with the mark, no champion and a rhino. Then you can at least get a 12 inch start, which normally would take you 3 turns to accomplish walking. 6 marines = 12 wounds, so you're golden for being hard to the core.

Troop2 - Get another small squad of bolters. They're worth it.

Troop3 - Daemons should arrive late in this army, not early. And you never want to stack too many flamers in one place, as they're not very durable and low on leadership (poor instability tests). One of the best ways to do it, is to go cheap and simple--- 4x Horrors with 2x Flamers in one squad. It shoots and absorbs quite a bit with a combined 12 wounds as well. You could go half and half too, but it's up to you. T3 and 5+ save isn't going to last, so you'll lose flamers quickly while horrors are better for eating those wounds. If you summon too early due to the bonus role, they will be out in the open, naked really and out of range for quite a while.

Troop4 - More daemons! They're cheap and useful. You need things that move.

Fast1 - Screamers are probably the worst daemon in our codex, but at least they move fast. Their combat abilities look nice on paper, but once you see them die in combat before getting to use hit & run, you'll quickly see why they don't cut it. I'd go for more horrors/flamers.

Heavy1 - Predators are literally essential. Using psychic powers for anti-tank just doesn't cut it. It's fluff but it's not competitive enough. Predators can do it though. Predator with autocannon, lascannon sponsons (2x lascannons) = your best bet for cheap. You can even mutate the hulls for added armor.

Heavy2 - Defilers are really not worth it. I would highly suggest either a real dreadnought or another predator. You need to move and your heavies are no exception. The defiler is just a huge point sink that will die faster than nearly anything else in your army. If you attempt indirect fire, you'll regret the minimum range of 36 inches, while the rest of your army is crawling to move forward. You need moving multi-shot guns here instead. I'd go Dread/pred or something more useful. I'd even stretch as far as to say that a Land Raider would be far more wroth while than the Defiler in this army.

---- Terminators are important here. The reaper autocannons can be very, very useful. And if you upgraded a squad of troops in this manner par the rules of tzeentch, then you could upgrade a squad of troops to become an elite, as terminators, but still as chaos marines (ie: rubric) so they would have 2 wounds, unlike chosen who merely all become sorcorers. This is a big step if you want some serious infantry. Small bands of termis with 2 wounds? Yes please!

Anyhow - pick up some speed, otherwise, you're going to be too slow and outgunned before you even get a chance to start the game. This army is one that has to be spread out and not lumped into single big units.

Cheers!

[DevilSquid]

I also want to point out that Screamer DO NOT have Hit And Run...they have their own version that forces them to flee at the end of any round of close combat.

So they jump in, attack, then run away, leaving them 2D6" away from the enemy, with their turn coming up to shoot/assault them.

Flamers are good 4-5 strong in a squad of 9 horrors (5 flamers/4horrors). This way you have some ablative wounds without losing firepower...

Tzeentch is perhaps the worst army to go Demon Heavy with...especially compared to Khorne and Slannesh...

Good luck to you.

(I personally have Zero demons in my Tzeentch army...Rhubic Marines all the way.)

D-DS

[07mikevick07]

Screamers DO have hit and run.* Just because it doesnt have the name hit and run in bold, doesnt mean they dont have it.* The rules for their version of it is the exact same as raptors.* The wording is the exact same except for them substituting the word 'screamer' for 'raptor'.


Also daemons arent the greatest in tzeentch.* They are far better off to be fielded with just straight up marines and bolters.* Definately mount some marines in rhinos, and maybe try to get some special or heavy weapons in those squads, since they can move and shoot with them.

[DevilSquid]

Sorry 07Mike, but if you read the Screamer entry, it specifically states that they HAVE to flee at the end of any round of close combat.

And if I recall correctly, it's not even called Hit and Run.

D-DS

[07mikevick07]

Sorry, I missed that.

But it is still basically hit and run. Besides the fact that they must flee, it has the exact same wording as the raptors hit and run. So its almost the same.

I guess screamers are ok, for a quick assault. But really, after you charge and assault a squad, on there coming up turn, they will most likely kill most of them or quite a few, then they can also choose to assault you, depending on how far they ran.

Its probably better to go with 1k sons mixed with undivided or something else. Then you can have access to better daemons like furies. Furies are excellent for quick assaults. They will get 3 atks on the charge, plus they are str5 so they will most likely wound alot.

[march10k]

Thanks, guys. I guess I'll make smaller squads of marines, mix flamers with screamers (I dunno why I didn't think of using cheaper screamers as meat shields), dump the defiler and maybe the screamers (I love the models, so maybe I'll take one min unit just for the hell of it), and get some 2-wound termies.

I do have to ask one thing, though. Why am I putting ksons in rhinos? AFAIK, they are about the world's worst combat marines. No charge bonus, no pursuit, and if I go with squads of 6 without the sorcer, no power weapon. Only thing they have going for them is 2 wounds each. On the other hand, they move D6" and still shoot 24"....so why not go the other way and field squads of 9 or 18, putting power fists on the complimentary ACs? Make them purely shooty with just enough assaultiness (2 wounds each and the buried weapon) to deter aggression?

I have some issues with this talk of terminators, though. As far as I can tell, rubric marines upgraded to termies can't have reapers....the dex specifically says they get combis and power weapons...in fact, itsays only the AC, if there is one, can upgrade further. Still, 42 points for a 2-wound termie is nice, so I'll try 5 in a LR. Although, I'm pretty sure the LR would have to be a heavy choice, not a dedicated transport.

So how about this plan:

2 fast HQs (one assaulty one with speed, the other shooty on a disc, just for fluff)

(240ish)

1 set of 9 marines with powerfist on board (231)

one set of 5 horrors and 4 flamers (177)

6 screamers (90)

2 predators with parasitic posession (290)1131

5 rubric terminators (210)

Landraider (250)

Is that better? I'm really glad I asked for advice before buying models...

[MalVeauX]

Originally Posted by march10k

I do have to ask one thing, though. Why am I putting ksons in rhinos? AFAIK, they are about the world's worst combat marines. No charge bonus, no pursuit, and if I go with squads of 6 without the sorcer, no power weapon. Only thing they have going for them is 2 wounds each. On the other hand, they move D6" and still shoot 24"....so why not go the other way and field squads of 9 or 18, putting power fists on the complimentary ACs? Make them purely shooty with just enough assaultiness (2 wounds each and the buried weapon) to deter aggression?

Basically you'll have to play them to see why. D6 is a terrible thing for a bolter. And even with 9 bolters or more, at 24 inches, you're just treading on 24 inch range land, where everyone else can shoot you too. And to top it off, most of the time, it's going to be a lot more hard of a gun than a bolter spraying into them, or a dirty close combat squad, waiting to stop all those bolters from firing, as they attempt to eat all your wounds, but you're stuck with very few attacks. The reason for small teams & the rhino, is because it's literally like buying 2 to 3 turns of movement for your Marines that normally you would lack. This may seem like it means just a few more steps closer to assault, but when you move this slow, and your opponent is moving normal and even faster than normal, being able to at least get up towards the middle with 12 wounds of fearless marine power is well worth it--they're stable icons for summoning, and their bolters will have reach on most things finally as you move around turn 2+. Basically it's with missions in mind, where you really have to get hoofing somewhere. But again, you'll have to play it to see what I mean I suppose.

As for the champion bit; champs with fists are great if you're expecting to be assaulted by anything more powerful than a guardsmen or guardian. However, otherwise, you may be tempted to buy all kinds of powers for him, etc. And that's up to you. I find it better without the sacred number, and therefore champs aren't free; so fielding other more manageable units are more imp rotant. However, if you want to stay pure, then maybe explore that option and see how well it works for you (you know your gaming environment better than we).

I have some issues with this talk of terminators, though. As far as I can tell, rubric marines upgraded to termies can't have reapers....the dex specifically says they get combis and power weapons...in fact, itsays only the AC, if there is one, can upgrade further. Still, 42 points for a 2-wound termie is nice, so I'll try 5 in a LR. Although, I'm pretty sure the LR would have to be a heavy choice, not a dedicated transport.

Chosen terminators are the only ones who may even consider buying a Reaper Autocannon. Troops upgraded to terminators are not chosen--they're still Rubric marines (ie: cannot take weapon upgrades par the rules of Tzeentch) and they now count as elite. They did not just become chosen (nor limit chosen squads).

The troop upgraded Terminator is a nice option for you when you want a themed army that is hard to stop. Taking even just one squad of 6, is 12 termi wounds, with power weapons and combi-bolters. That's a lot of twin-linked firing and good combat support. Pretty nice just for taking an area or being a threat. And the 250ish point price tag is steep, but again, 12 wounds speaks a lot (50% strength? haha!). Anyhow, just something to tinker with if you're interested.

So how about this plan:

2 fast HQs (one assaulty one with speed, the other shooty on a disc, just for fluff)

(240ish)

1 set of 9 marines with powerfist on board (231)

one set of 5 horrors and 4 flamers (177)

6 screamers (90)

2 predators with parasitic posession (290)1131

5 rubric terminators (210)

Landraider (250)

Is that better? I'm really glad I asked for advice before buying models...

Hrm... well, a lot of points are riding on precious few squads. There's nothing wrong with small squads of even 5 Tzeentch marines really. Just like Grey Knights, they're expected to be in small squads. But the scared number generally tricks people into the champion route. I'll leave it to you; but I'll still advice you avoid it. I would attempt to get 3 or 4 squads of small walking squads of bolters. I'd even do that over rhino wagons too. The more squads you have, the less you suffer from the rotten D6 rolls.

Big daemon squads may be shooting yourself in the foot mind you. Daemonic instability is no joke. When you're T3 and 5+ saving, and you have a low instability level like they do, you will find they melt their own wounds away by failing. This will happen sometimes, so it's worth preparing for. Big squads cost a lot, and once summoned, they are on the board--and out of range typically. They're a prime target because they're so easy to kill and cost so much. If you take smaller squads, they're at least less tempting as targets and have better chances of being summoned on turn 3, instead of 2.

I really recommend play testing with a real opponent a few times before buying a single thing.

Cheers!