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Chaos v.s. Eldar
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Old 07 Nov 2005, 21:47   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Chaos v.s. Eldar

I have a game to play on Saturday against eldar. I have no idea what his list is but I do know that he has a wraithlord and a falcon. I reaaaally want to win this but how? he has 670 points and I have 1000 so I have more choice. Here is my list so if you guys have any idea of what I should use or how I should use it please tell me

HQ

Chaos Lt. with MoCU Bolt pistol Power Weapon, Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Mutation, Frag Grenades * 88Pt's

Elites

8 Khorne Bezerkers including Asp. Champ, 7 w/ Khornate chainaxes, Asp.Champ w/Khornate Chainaxe Talisman of the burning blood and power fist * 173 pts

Troops

9 Chaos Space Marines including Asp. Champ 6 with bolt pistols and Chainswords, 1 w/ plasma gun, Asp Champ w/bolt pistol and power fist, Mark of the chaos Undivided, Mounted in Rhino with extra armor and Smoke Launchers(Lt. Goes here) * 231 Pt's

5 Chaos Space Marines, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with lascannon

-fast attack

3 chaos bikers including Asp. Champ, Asp champ with lightning claw and frags, mark of the chaos Undivided * 124 Pt's

Heavy Support

1 predator with TL lascannon, extra armor, and lascannon side sponsons 150 Pt's


1000 Pt's

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -Warsmith Tyranus
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Old 07 Nov 2005, 23:30   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

Tyranus:

Eldar can be a real mean one to fight against. With skimmers and Wraithlords, they have some tough units. But there are ways to break them. For starters, there's a few things you should when fighting Eldar:

1 - Dakka is better than quality against Eldar (This means, Autocannons are better than Lascannon, Heavy Bolters are very powerful)
2 - Large mobs of Marines are bad, because Eldar can quickly make a mess of them via focus fire. Spread your units out, ie, smaller unit sizes, and more units.
3 - Eldar easily break tank armor with Lance weapons; So don't take heavy armor and expect it to last.
4 - Don't under-estimate the power of bolters and rapid-fire against any form of Eldar infantry.
5 - Power Weapons and Daemonic Strength will make a mess of infantry in combat.
6 - Leaderhip attacks are very useful against Eldar infantry (ie: Daemonic Visage can go a long way).

So, looking at your list, I see a lot of large units, with big one-punch weapons and for the most part, easily picked off by a mobilized opponent like an Eldar army. I'll comment each of your selections and make recommendations:

HQ:

Chaos HQ's can be a super powerful counter assault against Eldar. They can also be total power-houses against their cheaper infantry, such as Guardians. I would recommend you setup your Lt. or Lord, to move faster, be stronger in combat, and be too hard to hit by weak S3 guardians to worry about death. That will allow you to stomp entire troop selections with a little Lord which may stop his starcannon or brightlance from causing you damage. A fast lord is easily protected due to Independent Character status and you can almost grantee him into combat by turn 1 or 2 depending how you take him and how the terrain is.

Your Lt. is cheap which is good, but for 88 points, he's too slow to get into combat with targets you want him to. Instead, he's just kind of taking up space.

I would recommend you use your Lt. or Lord to pick on his weakest of infantry where he is strongest, so keep Guardians and other infantry in mind who are all S3 or so and easily squashed:

Chaos Lord - 132 points.
-Daemonic Speed (or Flight)
-Daemonic Resilience
-Daemonic Aura
-Dark Blade
-Daemonic Visage
Bolt Pistol (or CCW)
Frag Grenades

He's very fast, and will dish out 5 attacks on the charge, hitting almost everything on a 3+ and wounding a 2+, while ignoring their saves. This is very powerful for the cheap cost and with T5 and 3+/5+ saves, you will easily avoid most damage that the weak S3 infantry wil cause. For example 10 guardians will attack back with 1 attack each, hitting on 4's (5 hits on average) and wounding on 5's (1 wound on average, maybe 2 at best) which you then easily save against on a 3+. You will munch through infantry easily. To top it off, you will cause -2 moral modifiers in moral when they lose combat, and since their leadership is only 8, that will be a ld6 moral, which is easily failed, which means they may fall back. That's where you win with your I5 or just stay in combat and beat them down further next turn. Remember, if they're below 50% strength that's another -1 modifier, so you could easily be forcing -3 modifiers making for Ld5 checks. Just play on the Eldar weakness and focus on his weaker infantry. Do not send a chaos HQ up against tough eldar units, like Wraithlords or against vehicles.

Elites1:

Berserkers are mince meat against most Eldar armies because they will blood frenzy right into a wraithlord where they will all die. The powerfist champion can cause damage to a wraithlord, but otherwise, his powerfist goes to a waste, as he only hits on 4's and wounds on 4's against the mighty wraithlord, so it will easily take 2 or 3 rounds of combat to stop the wraithlord, all the while, it kills off easily 1 or 2 marines per turn, leaving you broken below scoring level, most of the time, when combat resolves if you win. The chainaxes don't help against eldar as nothing has better than a 4+ save to begin with, so it's not worth buying point wise really, very few units have better than 4+ in Eldar armies. Overall, this unit will be a liability. I would scrap it in favor of an undivided squad with bolters. If you keep it however, make sure and take daemonic visage on the champ. When you deploy them, try and deploy in cover and on a side that is close to his infantry too, so that you blood rage towards good targets when possible and hope that you don't end up chasing a vehicle or wraithlord around all the game and die trying.

Troops1:

9 Marines with plasmas and a champ with a fist in a rhino. Well, it works, but I'd probably drop plasma in favor of either a flamer or a melta. You can easily destroy eldar in combat, so stopping to shoot at them (rapidfire prevents assault) means they can shoot you back, and starcannons are deadly to you. It's in your best interest to just assault them and use pistols and assault weaponry to cause mass damage while preventing them from killing you first. The rhino will help you get half way to your destination before it's glanced or busted, etc. Overall a good team, but I would give the champ mutation with his fist to help out just in case they meet the Wraithlord. Overall, Troops with powerfists are best for wraithlords, 2nd only to lascannons. But generally units that shoot are better off shooting the rest of the Eldar army, so powerfists may be a good idea. If you give the champ the best gear and daemonic strength (ie: power fist, daemonic strength, daemonic mutation and spiky bitz) you could easily drop a wraithlord by hitting him often and wounding on 3's with his S9 attacks. That will drop a Wraithlord in 1 or 2 turns instead of 3 or more. He cannot munch through 8 marines in that time, so it works out for you an you can use the rhino is mobile cover save terrain once it's destroyed. Mainly, switch up for pistols/CCW and assault weapons (flamers, meltas).

Troop2:

Min/Max marines are not a good idea. If you're going to take small squads, know that a Lascannon isn't going to kill his vehicles. Dakka kills vehicles, while lascannons glance and are typically ignored by Eldar gear that is retarded powerful. If you take a lascannon, only point it at the Wraithlord to help your marines in combat, otherwise, you have no choice but to try and glance things one at a time. It would be in your better interest to buy an Autocannon and take the "tank hunter" veteran skill, which will allow you 2 S8 shots at a time, which is much more powerful and will glance more often causing more damage quickly. I would take more squads with tank hunting autocannons than anything as they will literally eat all eldar units alive and will scrap their skimmers.

Fast1:

3 Bikes setup for combat are ok. They will do well to burst into combat with infantry, so make sure you attack cheap guardians or anthing similar. Stay away from vehicles and wraithlords with this bunch. Their T5 and powerful champion and good saves will ensure good combat rounds against S3/T3 guardians who will be squashed. Overall though, I would highly recommend another tankhunting autocannon team instead as the will be immensely helpful at dropping skimmers. Otherwise, this squad is fine.

Heavy1:

Predators are scrap metal against Lance weapons and the lascannons make her expensive. She's good at busting a wraithlord, but really, she would be better at killing infantry and skimmers with autocannons, heavy bolters and a havoc launcher. If you have no choice, and you must take lascannon, you can attempt to glance skimmers often, and it will work, but the problem is, your tank blows up to a single lance hit, whilst his skimmers survive glances. That's why I always recommend marines with weapons instead of tanks for fighting Eldar.

I would highly recommend a 6 to 8 man team of Havocs, with 3 autocannons and tankhunter veteran upgrade. They will rip through skimmers easily and quickly maul infantry all the same. Very powerful and useful squad parked in cover with superior range.

-----------------------

Example:

HQ:

Chaos Lord
-Daemonic Speed (or Flight)
-Daemonic Resilience
-Daemonic Aura
-Dark Blade
-Daemonic Visage
Bolt Pistol (or CCW)
Frag Grenades

Troop:

Marines x 6
-Autocannon
-Plasmagun
#Tank Hunters

Troop:

Marines x 6
-Autocannon
-Plasmagun
#Tank Hunters

Troop:

Marines x 6
-Lascannon
-Plasmagun

Troop:

Marines x 8
-Flamer
Asp. Champion; Power Fist; Daemonic Strength; Daemonic Mutation
Rhino; Extra Armor; Smokes

Fast:

Bikes x 3
Asp. Champ; Lighting Claw

Heavy:

Predator
-Lascannon Turret
-Lascannon Sponsons
-Extra Armor

Just an example though; the point is to play on the weakness of the Eldar, depending on what he has. Also, not sure as to which models you have available of course.
Anyhow - good luck and feel free to ask questions

Cheers!
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Old 07 Nov 2005, 23:46   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

If the guy only has 670 points then he's spent a huge chunk of it on the two models you mentioned. A kitted out falcon is right around 200pts and a wraithlord puts him over 300 easy. That's half his points on two models.

Malveaux is right- more shots is better vs Eldar than quality shots. Autocannons and Heavy Bolters will be able to handle just about anything he can field, and you can outmanuever the slow wraithlord and focus your attacks on infantry. If the guy is taking a Farseer then all he really has room left over for is 2 squads with heavy weapons, and the sheer volume of your shots and close combat should wipe him off the field.

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Old 08 Nov 2005, 00:15   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

the only thing that I have is that I don't have that amount of Marines.... so I made this list. Also other player only have 500 pts so we will only play a 500 pt battle but maybe I can get him to play a 660 point battle

Chaos Lieutenant
Daemon Armor
Daemon Essence
Daemonic Flight
Daemonic Strength
Dark Blade
Bolt pistol

135 pts

6 Chaos Space Marines 1 w/ heavy bolter 89 pts

6 Chaos Space Marines 1 w/ heavy bolter 89 pts

5 Chaos Space marines w/ bolt pistol and close combat weapon 70 pts


3 bikers 1 w/ power fist 102 pts


Predator w/ all lascannons and extra armor 175

TOTAL-660
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Old 08 Nov 2005, 00:51   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

It's ok if that's all you have; Let's just work on getting you more for less so that you can let your opponents more easily play games with you if you all play 500 points games (which I would highly recommend you switch over to combat patrols for).

HQ:

That Lt. is illegal. They cannot have more than 50 points in daemonic gifts. Only a Lord can have more than 50. As such, this Lt. is also heavily upgraded for no apparent reason. Another thing, daemonic strength and the dark blade combine for 7 strength here, which makes very little difference compared to S6 - you still wound all infantry pretty much on a 2+ or so. I wouldn't take both. I would recommend chopping most of that gear, or upgrade to lord status and drop most of that gear

Chaos Lt.
-Daemonic Flight
-Daemonic Strength
-Daemonic Aura
Bolt Pistol
Power Weapon

106 points.

But honestly - I wouldn't even take that. At 500 points, any HQ you take will either be too much or pretty much naked. That's why I recommend combat patrol.

So, for Eldar busting, another option:

Chaos Lord
-Daemonic Speed (or Flight)
-Daemonic Resilience
-Daemonic Strength
-Daemonic Venom (or just Bolt Pistol & CCW)

This would work better than you think. You see, most Eldar units have poor armor saves. If you're fighting infantry, then you don't need power weapon attacks. You just need several attacks. A T5 lord like this, with speed or flight, will quickly get into combat, and cause lots of damage, and with S5, he will wound on a 2+, and he has 4 base attacks, and 5 on the charge. He will hit on 3's and wound on 2's while being tough against their attacks. Their 5+ save will not work often, so you really don't need to invest in ignoring it. For a cheap 100 point Lord, he will cause hordes of damage to eldar infantry and be very powerful.

Troop1:

6 Marines with a H.Bolter is pretty good against Eldar (but it doesn't do anything against a Wraithlord & Falcon)

Troop2:

See above.

Troop3:

Stock marines are good against everything, except the Wraithlord & Falcon.

Fast1:

3xBikes with a Champ and a Fist costs more than just 102 points, so this isn't correct here. Overall though, Bikes cost a lot and in small games, aren't really so worth it compared to more marines. But if it's all you have, it's all you have. They can be good for tank-hunting, with a melta or plasma gun.

Heavy1:

This predator is your only source of real AT punch. It will be responsible for killing his Falcon primarily; then kill his Wraithlord if you survive.
Also, the points on this unit don't add up - seems you added all sorts of things and upped it's cost without showing what you bought...

Cheers!
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Old 08 Nov 2005, 03:41   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

sorry I added all of those up wrong but I was going to youth group so I was kinda in a rush. So what about the oblitorators? they can bust up the wraithlord and Falcon with lascannon and when it gets through with that it can morph a heavy bolter to kill the Guardians, or if it doesn't kill the wraithlord in the first turn it also has the powerfist! Sorry I forgot to mention these bad boy in my main list. Plus the 2 of them is less that the predator. So here is the list.


Chaos Lt.
-Daemonic Flight
-Daemonic Strength
-Daemonic Aura
Bolt Pistol
Power Weapon

106pts

2 Oblitorator 140pts

7 Chaos Space Marines w/ aspiring Champ, one with Heavy Bolter Frag grenades 122pts

7 Chaos Space Marines w/ aspiring Champ, one with meltagun Frag Grenades 127pts

6 Chaos Space Marines w/ Chain Swords w/ aspiring Champ Frag Grenades 102pts

-Warsmith Tyranus
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Old 08 Nov 2005, 04:14   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

Tyranus:

Just remember, Obliterators in combat with a Wraithlord is a bad idea (S8 will insta-kill an Obliterator, and Wraithlords are S10). Obliterators are very slow, so their powerfists being strong are nice, but they'll probably die before getting a chance to use them. Obliterators are better suited to use their shooting attacks to take out Wraithlords, but avoid combat. Also, Obliterators will generally outlast a vehicle, so that's a good trade really. That gives you lascannons for Wraithlords, and 2 autocannons for skimmers and heavy bolters for infantry. Good to go.

As for your troopers, that first troop has 7 marines dedicated to a single heavy bolter, as well as an un-upgraded champion. I would go down to 6 marines without a champ with the heavy bolter and move the points into the other more mobile marine squads.

Cheers!
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Old 08 Nov 2005, 13:52   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

what about this

Chaos Lt.
-Daemonic Flight
-Daemonic Strength
-Daemonic Aura
Bolt Pistol
Power Weapon

106pts

2 Oblitorator 140pts

6 Chaos Space Marines 1 w/ heavy bolter frag grenades 89pts

7 Chaos Space Marines one with meltagun Frag Grenades 124pts

7 Chaos Space Marines w/ Chain Swords w/ Frag Grenades 103pts


-Warsmith Tyranus
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Old 08 Nov 2005, 20:39   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

Tyranus:

Sure man - Just give it a whirl. Also, pay attention how things work out and how your units perform against their targets. Make sure and keep a close eye on it all. Then report back after your game and let us know how it went, in detail if you can. Otherwise - good luck to you and have a blast!

Cheers!
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Old 08 Nov 2005, 22:01   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chaos v.s. Eldar

OK
Jacks Birthday party is on Saturday and I think that I am going to be going over to Trevor's( Eldar) house today. I will report back to you after the battle and tell you how it went.

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