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Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 13:11   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

I myself really enjoy apocalypse. I love the grand battles with thousands of points on each side. (The largest game I've played in was 123,000pts per side) But people on forums all over the internet seem to have something against them. I don't see why you don't like them. As long as a time limit is imposed then everything should run smoothly.
Please could someone tell me what everyone has against them?
Cam
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 13:22   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

In my opinion, they are woefully and terribly unbalanced. The rules are just a step above "I shot that guy and they're all dead" "No they're not" "Yes they are, I use a super, quasi, photo, plasma array set on morti-destructor power!"

There are just a few things that would make Apoc a very balanced game. 1) Use the FOC (with the ability for players to use multiple FOC's). This would do two things. a) It would eliminate spamming units. b) It would force players to use Formations. 2) Offer two "Apoc" slots on the FOC. Superheavies and/or Formations go here. This forces list optimization.

Almost every list in the game will be around 3,000 points when it fills all 11 FOC slots. Add the two Apoc slots an you could be around 4,000 points with no problem. In my opinion, Apoc breaks down around 5,000 points per player or 20,000 points per side. Either your board has to be so big that it's impossible to reach across or you've got so many models on the board that you're literally shovelling them off.
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 13:49   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Not everyone hates Apoc, some majority like it (I do! :P). But Aureus does mention some of the points about Apoc that many people dislike about it, and how it should be changed somewhat, which I can agree with.
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 14:25   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatedragonlord
I myself really enjoy apocalypse. I love the grand battles with thousands of points on each side. (The largest game I've played in was 123,000pts per side) But people on forums all over the internet seem to have something against them. I don't see why you don't like them. As long as a time limit is imposed then everything should run smoothly.
Please could someone tell me what everyone has against them?
Cam
Short version, everything.

Long version, everything - examples given below.
  • No Force Organisation - people can put whatever retarded collection of forces they want onto the table.
  • Str "D" weaponry. 40K already has Titan Killer weapons (thanks to Forgeworld), and they are much more balanced than Str "D".
  • Retarded Templates. Since when does the Baneblade fire a shell that needs a 10" template? The Baneblade fires rocket-propelled Battlecannon shells. That isn't an excuse to be mind-numbingly retarded, it just means that it packs a bigger punch.
  • GW went through a phase where instead of coming up with clever, intelligent, interesting rules, they just gave you a table and said "pick whatever you want". They did it with Cities of Death (hence why Cityfight is far better) and they did it with Apocalypse. My gaming club managed to have massive battles that waged over multiple tables (and three separate battlefields) without having to give each player a piece of paper saying "once per game you can fire a Heavy 58389035789023478903254 Str 103 AP -4 Rending Pinning Ordnance weapon".
  • It introduced the Plastic Baneblade, and thus helped destroy the notion that maybe the reason the Baneblade cost over a hundred quid and came from Forgeworld was you weren't meant to use it every game!
  • It's not 40K.
  • IT IS NOT 40K! You CANNOT use Apocalypse units in normal 40K, because they're overpowered sacks of crap. The Forgeworld Baneblade is balanced for 40K, and your average 2,000pt army should have the means to take it down. Thus, in the 3,000pt range, Super-Heavies were by no means game-breaking.
  • Every brainless retard in the world is now trying to make their own Apocalypse formation. Usually along the lines of "Hey! I've got this super sweet vehicle! It's a Tank and its got a Mega-Battlecannon with co-axial Autocannon, a Demolisher Cannon! two Lascannons and three TL Heavy Bolters!"
  • The above usually have never heard of Epic, which just adds insult to injury.

Would you like any more reasons why Apocalypse is a load of crap? If you can't run a 7,000pt game without Apocalypse, you shouldn't be running it at all.
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 14:51   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Part of the fun of apocalypse is that it's NOT balanced. You can field the most retarded (to use Wargamer's technical term) units and items you want.

Of course, if you're a complete cheese burglar (9 daemon princes with lash + as many demolishers and baneblades as points allow) then your opponents will refuse to include you in the next apocalypse game.

The problem I have with it is that they made no effort to streamline gameplay. I feel like they could have made an effort at making games go a little faster.
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 14:58   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
The problem I have with it is that they made no effort to streamline gameplay
Yeah they did, they gave the world and 'is wife massive blast S D weapons that just kill anything they touch, thus making troops suicide units :
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 16:09   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
Quote:
The problem I have with it is that they made no effort to streamline gameplay
Yeah they did, they gave the world and 'is wife massive blast S D weapons that just kill anything they touch, thus making troops suicide units :
You must play against a lot of titans. The only "D" weapons I've come across are either linebreaker squadrons (which can be neutralized pretty easily) or those damn daemon shells (which are one shot only and can seriously backfire).
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 16:10   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droofus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
Quote:
The problem I have with it is that they made no effort to streamline gameplay
Yeah they did, they gave the world and 'is wife massive blast S D weapons that just kill anything they touch, thus making troops suicide units :
You must play against a lot of titans. The only "D" weapons I've come across are either linebreaker squadrons (which can be neutralized pretty easily) or those damn daemon shells (which are one shot only and can seriously backfire).
Then you're not playing Apocalypse, you're playing 40k without Force Organisation, which is even more retarded than Apocalypse.
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 16:15   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droofus
Part of the fun of apocalypse is that it's NOT balanced. You can field the most retarded (to use Wargamer's technical term) units and items you want.

Of course, if you're a complete cheese burglar (9 daemon princes with lash + as many demolishers and baneblades as points allow) then your opponents will refuse to include you in the next apocalypse game.
One of our regulars quite frequently gets out his entire Ultraspuds Company and declares: "that Drop pod contains 5 Captains and a chapter master tooled up to the nines. Oh and that's Marneus Calgar over there in the land raider. Did I mention he has Cassius with him... and I'm sure I had a Tigurius or two around here somewhere..."

Retarded is the word.

Having said that, when an Apocalypse game is subjected to certain fluffier limitations and everyone comes around with a reasonable expectation of what is going to go down I have no problem with playing it. It's not really my cup of tea...
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Old 05 Feb 2009, 16:21   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Plus any GEQ unit is negligible e.g. even though it's on the table, people act as if they don't exist because at some point, a massive template will scatter over them and kill them instantly.
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