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Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?
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Old 07 Feb 2009, 15:17   #21 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

I think some people are taking Apoc too literally. Yes, the games can be imbalanced, but, if that's the case, I don't really think you're playing it with the right people. The rules are basically that there are no rules and that you can do whatever the hell you want, which would include enforcing whatever alternate rules that you would like. I don't think Apoc would ever made with the intention of perfect balance, but just the fun of it.

And this... this is the only reason Apoc leaves a bit of a sour taste. I like the datasheets and such, but it feels like a really big hardback book for a really simple ruleset and isn't even a ruleset. Just overkill. I would be fine if it was just a codex-style.
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Old 07 Feb 2009, 16:00   #22 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Apocalypse games with some restrictions can work. In most games of it that I've played, it's all about the superheavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures. Even the might of Tau railguns, lascannons, or multi-meltas are also-rans next to them. If there was a house rule something like "no more than 1/4 of the points you bring to the game can be in superheavies", then it might not be so bad. But if one guy brings a titan and the other side doesn't, then there's no way to counter the titan and the game is fairly pointless.
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Old 07 Feb 2009, 16:35   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

But then that kinda defeats the whole selling point of Apocalypse, doesn't it? "The only rule is, there are no rules! Except for these ones of course!" And so much for it being an opportunity to field all your models and superheavies and titans when you're banned from doing so for 1) fluff reasons (alliances that make no sense), 2) the other side doesn't have titans so neither can you, or 3) superheavies are heavily restricted and FOC obeyed so the game is more "balanced".

Doesn't matter if it's "fair" or if the other side can even really deal with a single titan or superheavy, that's the whole "point" of Apocalypse and enforcing restrictions just defeats the whole purpose. Apocalypse can't possibly be a good thing when you have to rewrite the "rules" for it and play it in a way that it wasn't originally intended just to make it work. :-\
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Originally Posted by Redbeard
Knowing the rules is not WAAC. Bringing tough lists is not WAAC. Acting within the scope of the rules is not WAAC.
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Old 07 Feb 2009, 23:36   #24 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

as to one side having super heavies, and the other one not. big whoop.

we've played 3-way 1500pnt games with a bio-titan, and some baneblades versus my 1500 necrom force, following the FOC.

i killed the bio-titan, and one of the baneblades before i phased out, we all knew that if i hadn't phased out, i would have won, as the other baneblade was imobilized and missing almost all it's guns.

apoc is cool, formations are cool, super heavies are cool.

end of line.
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Old 08 Feb 2009, 03:14   #25 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
apoc is cool, formations are cool, super heavies are cool.

end of line.
...I hope you're just indicating that your post is finished.
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Knowing the rules is not WAAC. Bringing tough lists is not WAAC. Acting within the scope of the rules is not WAAC.
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Old 08 Feb 2009, 07:35   #26 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

If you have 12 people lets say, 6 on each team, bring 500pts each then to me it can be a fun game. Most people don;t have the superheavies and as along as not one does have one then it make out to be a fun game. Its the superheavies that tip the balance. One or two is ok but anything else and it just over the top. No one in my area plays apoc. and most of us don't have the urge to either. The best part about Apoc. was the giant formation box sets. The deals on them were/are great.
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Old 08 Feb 2009, 10:44   #27 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Simply put i hate (no hate is not a too stronger word) because of the complete lack of order, the retarded units and retarded players who think "ohh new big tank lets buy it" not realising what is or what it does and thnking that just because they bought a bane blade for 60 it means they win. when you trigger a chain reaction on it with a tactical squads sarg with a power fist, then it becomes fun just watching all the opposite side light up in fire and the little shit heads smiles turn to tears.

just thinking about it is ****ing me off
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Old 12 Feb 2009, 04:11   #28 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Personally, I really enjoy apocalypse, but only if it is played the way it is supposed to be, planned ahead with a small group of friends who know they're going to bring balanced lists. I do play in the apocalypse battles in my local store when possible, and I still enjoy it, though not quite as much. However, I do always check with the store what is likely to be included in the battle, and how much I should bring down. Sure, I can field two tank companies if I want to, but I havn't yet. They have considered asking me to bring everything (10k Guard roughly) to the Shadowsword/Stompa release, but I suspect that is a marketing ploy.

On another note, I've seen people mention how super-heavies and especially titans unbalance the game . . . in a way, that is only realistic. If you've got a bunch of infantry against a column of armour escorting a titan, of course you're going to be screwed. So maybe you should plan for every eventuality. I've seen plenty of Warhounds taken down in games by close combat squads. I've seen them die to lascannons and their ilk. So long as you think about how you engage them, it is possible. I can't say the same for Warlords or reavers having never fought them, and yeah, I can imagine they're somewhat harder to deal with, but if you're up to games of that size, you really should have enough lascannons to point at them while the rest of your army thinks about the smaller threats.

So, in my opinion, yes, things could have been done better, but some things could have been done worse. They got it right when they stated in the rule book that it is best played in planned games with friends. Who else are you going to trust not to bring 10,000 points when you've only got 3,000.
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Old 13 Feb 2009, 04:38   #29 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyena031
If you have 12 people lets say, 6 on each team, bring 500pts each then to me it can be a fun game. Most people don;t have the superheavies and as along as not one does have one then it make out to be a fun game. Its the superheavies that tip the balance. One or two is ok but anything else and it just over the top. No one in my area plays apoc. and most of us don't have the urge to either. The best part about Apoc. was the giant formation box sets. The deals on them were/are great.
In theory. In practice, Ive always seen these sorts of games have a few people who really shouldn't be playing apoc...ie, they don't know their army, and take up ungodly amounts of time looking stuff up and screwing around.

Massive amounts of superheavies is always gamebreaking. Nothing sucks like having 8k of infantry on the board being mostly ignored because A. Anything less than a lascannon or chainfist simply isn't very dangerous in the first place. Tac squads are nearly irrelevant. and B. Random scatters and stuff will kill them anyhow. Strength D is nasty.

The only good apoc game Ive had is one where we literally made it just a 5k per side game of 40k. We each stuck to one proper army, had no superheavies involved, and had a more or less balanced force. Didn't even use formations or strategems. Great fun....but I guess, not really apocalypse.

Rules in games exist for a reason. If people need rules to keep them from being unfair cheesemonkeys at 1500 points, they DEFINITELY need those rules at 5000 points.
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Old 13 Feb 2009, 04:46   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Whats Wrong with Apocalypse?

It has issues. I was supposed to play a game tonight but there was a miscue on my opponent. So I watched another game. I think he had three Land Raiders, three Vindicators, a Dreadnought or two, a few units of Terminators, and a Baneblade. His opponent never stood much of a chance. To top it off he was using the Disrupter Beacon against a Chaos Space Marine list. That effectively shut down deep-striking and the use of Daemons over the entire area under contention.

I think it can be fun once in a while, but it is not robust. It doesn't stand up to the same sort of stretching that people subject the 40k rules to.
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