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My apocalypse views...
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 09:29   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Default My apocalypse views...

Firstly this isn't directed at anyone in particular, its general observations. I apologise if it comes accross as a rant, its not suppose to. It written in pro-active view to what I think is the best 40k release for years.

Fluffhammer
Play the units in the style they're meant to be played. Let fluff drive your games. I didn't flank march my bloodclaws directly behind the enemy because thats just silly. Hordes of blood claws on foot manage to sneakily slip around behind an entrenched chaos position and assault it in the rear... didn't sit right for me. Instead I flank marched my 13th company, representing them chasing the chaos forces out of the warp! Now that was cool. My opponent played strategic redeployment to represent some of his force evading the 13th company by jumping back into the warp and out on the other side of the battlefield! Very clever and very fluffy. I lost the game, but i didn't care, i'd just played the best game of 40k ever for 9.5hours. Apoc isn't about winning.


Stathammer and powergaming
This is a never ending vicious circle that leaves 1 side annoyed they were power gamed. This is where winning is more important then your friends. People will go to great lengths to power game their friends into the ground. Fielding unpainted models, teaming up with allies that don't work well together (nids should never ally full stop), using proxies (these shoeboxes are a warlord titan)...
This is a nasty side to apoc.

Otherside of the coin...
This isn't directed at anyone specifically - Its not just about powergaming winners though, its about sore losers as well. Accusing someone of powergaming because you had your ass handed to you on a plate is bad sportsmanship. I'm hearing a lot of moaning and whining about apoc on this site and its not an attractive quality to the hobby.


Inability to deal with super units
If you can't shoot down a superheavy flyer, its not your opponents fault for fielding one. So long as its fully painted, and works with his forces (i.e. its not a manta being used by a space marine ally) then fantastic. i'd love to see a thunderhawk strafe my 120 gaunt formation repeatedly, its would be an incredible sight, very cinematic! I doubt my nids could shoot it down, so i'd probably ignore it. If the thunderhawk dominated the game and helped tip the balance in my opponents favour, then well done to him. Its my own fault for not fielding anti aircraft units.

Moaning about imbalanced strategic assets
Also people are having a go at the strategic assets. Most of the assets can be countered with other assets. Strategic redeploy, ambush and disruptor beacons can ruin your enemies flank march plans. So its not the assets fault you lost, its your own fault for not countering. Remember you don't have to be defensive to counter an asset. You could flank march yourself. You and your opponent have access to the same rules, how is it an imbalance?

Moaning about units getting nerfed
People moaning about their AI units getting nerfed... get over yourselves. Embrace the changes, deal with it. The important thing here is to field your cool painted models, not to use more powerful rules options.
The trygon is infinitively better in AI4 then it is in AI Apoc. However if you're playing apoc you use the apoc rules and deal with it. Using the AI4 rules because they're better stinks of trying to powergame.
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 09:54   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

Unfortunately, if my store follows your standards then most of them would be at the 'stathammer and powergamer' level. There will not be any Apoc game at all.

In fact I think in come of Apoc I have build my own Tau Titan unit, which counts as a revenant titan for the purpose of Apocalypse. I think of it as a modelling project, but if someone wants to play with it, they will have to use the Revenant titan rule. I have not painted it yet, and I have only played with it once. But I do not like to play with my Tau titan, for the fact that it is a hassle to transport and I will only bring it if someone requested for it. usually that means I will be playing in my full Mech tau glory, which is fluffy.


But then I will often see a lot of unpainted super-heavy models (Brass scorpion, Baneblade, Stompa) and/or just unfluffy armies in a sense ( 5 Daemon Princes with Lash of Submission with 15 Obliterators only, 90+ Lootas) that will often make the game not fun at all for one who likes to use fluffy and painted units like myself. In addition, it is one thing to find a counter for a super heavy, but it is another when you have up to 3 superheavies sitting on one objective marker for the duration of the game, thus making the other players unable to do much about it.

I do not mind getting my ass being handed to me in a diamond plate for all that matters, but please make your armies fluffy and not in a powergaming sense. I mean what kind of battle is an army only consisting of 6 baneblades and three brass scorpions just sitting on all the objective markers added with the Orbital Bombardment strategem?

I also loved Apocalypse for the fact that it is more epic, but please make the epic battles fun and fluffy.
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 12:47   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

i REALLY cant see why people are getting so worked up over apocolypse.


i have only had about 4/5 games and they have all been amoungst the best games i've ever had (i will be posting the battlerep for the "best" game i ever had soon )


i even purchased a baneblade hellhammer to use with my ELYSIANS!! (they arrive by grav chutes - i'm working on fluff to get some grav-chutes or drop pods for a hellhammer )


EVERYTHING can be countered if you really want it to. but if my opponent does bring a manta to the table, i would probably remove any weapons i have that could damage it - rather than risk destroying £1000 worth of model that looks damned awesome
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 13:37   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

i know guys who play powergaming, i hate it. if i had a choice about what to play. fluffhammer would be my choice


i soon have a apoc nid force myself. nicely painted hive fleet kraken. i bring very few gaunts to the table (because of lack of patience to paint numbers in such a time consuming scheme). i probably get blown away big time, because of my few units (for being apoc). but i don't care. its fun using the models. i am unsing a great amount of gargantuans however ;D
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 14:40   #5 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

I totally agree with your post. I've yet to see exactly where my shop falls, since I haven't played an Apoc game with them yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth
(nids should never ally full stop),
I disagree with this however. If someone can come up with a plausible reason, then let them do it. Genestealer Cult using Chaos or IG rules? Perhaps the Tyranids are a very small fleet who have been manipulated by somse awesome Chaos sorceror? You have to let your imagination run wild.
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 15:06   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

I don't disagree that it is possible to bend the fluff, and have Imperial Guard believing the end is nigh, being brain washed by magus and dedicating their efforts to overthrowing the planetry defence force and the arbites.

However i can't see a nid army running side by side with an IG cultist force. I see the nids eating the cultists and their enemies indiscriminately.

But like you say, its perfectly legal. its just bending the fluff a little too much for my liking.
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 15:22   #7 (permalink)
Kai
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

At GW manchester they did an awesome set of conversions (mostly using guitar strings) for a bunch of Nids that had been engineered to be mind controlled by an Inquisitor that were allied with a relatively small inducted IG army. The opposing side was an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor sent to bring him to justice with all he had at his disposal. It was quite a cool idea.

The best part was there was a control node in the "bad" inquisitors base, and when it got destroyed the Nids just attacked the nearest unit on either side, at which point the "bad" inquisitors mission objective changed from fighting off the Ordo Hereticus, to getting to his Aquila and getting the hell out of dodge.
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Old 19 Dec 2007, 14:29   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth

However i can't see a nid army running side by side with an IG cultist force. I see the nids eating the cultists and their enemies indiscriminately.

hmm. i never thought you disagreed to that when we talked in MSN?


i am using my stealer cult tank company with my nids. actually i think in the passt, the older edition nids when the cults still existed, they could fight together, am i right?
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Old 19 Dec 2007, 14:46   #9 (permalink)
Kai
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Default Re: My apocalypse views...

Well, yes to some extent. What you have to remember is in 2nd Ed EVERY army was allow 25% of its composition to be taken from other armies books (with a list of acceptable allies). The downside for Tyranids was they often had no ally options. Genestealer cults (a sepereate army list at the back of the 2nd Ed Tyranid codex) did allow the cult to take Tyranids as allies (not vice versa, and purestrain genestealers were part of the regular army lists). This kinda represents very early stages of an invasion, before the cult gets consumed by the bioships and used to create more nids. Once the nids became the main army, no, they could not ally with anyone.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai
Quote:
Originally Posted by †Methelas†
The Titan is not a human, therefore has no genitals!
My subtle diagram disagrees with you.
your "subtle" diagram contains Optimus Prime and Proffessor Farnsworth, it's heresy in it's own right!
Any similarities between your reality and mine are purely coincidental...
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