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What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 07:59   #1 (permalink)
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Default What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

Something that crops up a lot, both here and on other forums...

People who claim Crisis Suits or Necrons all but invincible get called a Fanboy, but people who say the same about Marines or Eldar are not.

People who claim the Tau are stupid, weak, ignorant, or on the verge of extinction, get called an Imperial Fanboy, but if you say the Imperials are on the verge of extinction, people believe you.

Where is the line drawn?

For me, it was drawn in 1st Edition: First Edition fluff tells us Marines are super-tough, that Eldar are the greatest, most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, that Orks come in great hoardes, and that the Guard are doomed to play the role of poor bloody infantry.

For me, the age of a race (real-time) adds weight to claims about it. The reason many, myself included, claim the Tau are weak and ignorant is because they are relatively new. Eldar have been with us for twenty-five years, and so the idea of them being the best is ingrained into 40K.

Anyway, just thought it would make an interesting discussion...
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 08:34   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

If you make a claim about your army based on your personal feelings, you are a fanboy. If you make a claim based on the fluff and rules of the game you are not.
The Tau are weak and ignorant. Thats not a fanboy claim, its true. They have no idea about the horrors of the galaxy and were totally unprepared for how hard the other races would fight.
Marines are super powerful. Fluffwise, 10 can defeat an army of hundreds. Rulewise they are also powerful, but with good reason.

You're right, it is making an interesting discussion, it certainly made me think quite hard, and I'm sitting in college at the mo.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 08:46   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

Well it depends on the person, author, story, fluff the person quotes. In every codex there are stories of whicever race goes with the codex doing amazing and awesome things.

Warning spoilers for a few books contained here.
Reading the stories we see that it is all a matter of perspective. In Angels of Darkness, 5 Dark Angels take on a few hundread soldiers and win. In Iron Hands a squad of space marines armed with nothing heavier than a bolter and frag grenades take on Nurgle LATD traitors, mutants, zombies, Terminators, daemons, plague marines, and a Defiler and win with only a single casualty all in one huge battle. In the Emperor's hand 4 Khornite world eater berserkers take on a couple hundred slanessh cultists and make they're way through almost all of them before a greater daemon kills the last one. In Kill Team a single Grey Knight takes on 3 Crisis suits and a group of firewarriors and wins with just his bolter. In The Inquisition War trilogy you have 1 harlequin take on an entire squad of guardsmen and win. In the Crusade for Armagedon you have Black Templars slugging it out with Orcs and the battle being relatively even.

So one way of looking at it is that since there is so much more literature dealing with Marines and Eldar that people feel they can quote "reliable" sources to back their claim.

Also since most players I know either play Marines or have a marines army there is a lot of support for them and the Eldar.

In my opinion arguing about fluff is a pretty foolish thing as the only people who have any say is the people at Games Workshop and history has proven that they don't care what their customers think.

It's a matter of opinion and in a make believe setting you can generate all the arguments you want for or against something or another, but there are no actual facts to back it up as nothing is real. I could make the claim the the Tau will take over the galaxy and give an example for this as their rapid expansion and victories over orcs, tyranids, Legio Titannicus, and Space marines.

A claim that Tau are weak and ignorant is a matter of opinion. By that same regard I can say that Hitler was a genius, a monster, morally upright, and despicable. Each claim is completely true, but really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The Tau were ignorant only so far as that they didn't know what was out there, but according to their fluff they are an ingenuitive and adaptive race. Given their technological development all they have to do is hold out for another couple thousand years and their technology will surpass even the Necrons.

The Tau are weak is also true, they are not physically strong, but in matters of tactics they fight extremely well. Compared to the Tau all armies are jokes, the tau are the only race that have come to the same realization that the real world did in the 1800's. Charging at a foe with a sword is stupid and not effective, we still give our soldiers close combat training, but they aren't expected to use it much if at all. Shooting a person at a thousand yards works much better than getting into a brawl.

Personally I don't like the Imperium for my own reasons and I do like the Tau, I like Necrons for different reasons, appreciate but don't care for the Eldar, laugh and cheer the orcs on, feel ambiguously towards chaos, but that's just my opinion and I don't feel the need to argue their fluff with other people.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 09:14   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

I guess for me a fanboy is one who only reads one armys fluff.

Almost everything that happens in books is possible. It just takes lots and lots of sixes.

I think every race should be compared by reading what they do in other races codex. (All the small parts in between actual data)

After this there should be some sort of general picture of the race. (Sort of downplayed, since they are propably losing in their opponents codex).
After this, you can (carefully) start adding small things from their own codex and books, as long as you don´t over do it.

I think this way you should end up somewhere around realistic presentation. Unfortunately too many fanboys seem to think their own codex (where they are winning, except maybe IG) and the books like "Süberc00l invulnerable Mister X (Or Miss X for SOB) saves the world from orks/tyranids/chaos/traitors/heretics/aliens/moderators/housewives/insurance-salesmen and kills all 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 of them all by himself while doing it." are a good and realistic potrait of what the race is like.

Honestly, how many here think all ancient greeks were kings who waged war for 10 years, and needed another 10 to get home?

Or who here thinks every 15th centure people wes inventor genius, who also doubled as an artist?

Or who thinks every german in the 30s was planning of running his own Reich and conquerring half the world?

Books are written from big heros, villains and special people. They are not good idea to base your assumptions on entirely.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 10:10   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

as far as I'm concerned... a fanboy only thinks his own army is the best and refuses to even consider the strengths of other forces... wherease fluff tends to exagerate a little but is more accurate than anything a fanboy can say, since it takes into account the strengths and weeknesses of all the armies.

the fact that the Tau are ignorent and because of this potentially week, however they adapt very rapidly to meet all the challenges facing them. This is globaly accepted, thus not fanboy claims... just as the SM are biologically enhanced super humans who use the best of human technology to defend humanity in the name of the emperor. It is also globaly accepted that they tend to be fearless and can take down hundreds of their enemy before being killed themselves. Therefore this is also fluff and not fanboy dreams...

The difference is mainly distinguished depending on how much that individual knows with reguard of what he says... If he only knows about his army, he cannot make any claims as to how they would fare against any other army, since he doesn't know enough about them to make educated claims... If he does make these claims nevertheless, he is a fanboy...

This is just my thought on the matter
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 10:30   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrdiG
as far as I'm concerned... a fanboy only thinks his own army is the best and refuses to even consider the strengths of other forces... wherease fluff tends to exagerate a little but is more accurate than anything a fanboy can say, since it takes into account the strengths and weeknesses of all the armies.

The difference is mainly distinguished depending on how much that individual knows with reguard of what he says... If he only knows about his army, he cannot make any claims as to how they would fare against any other army, since he doesn't know enough about them to make educated claims... If he does make these claims nevertheless, he is a fanboy...

This is just my thought on the matter*
So agreed. A fanboy is a guy that sees things from one angle, and one angle only. For example, Eldar players refusing to admit that the railgun is a more powerful anti-tank weapon then the bright-lance, simply because it's more advanced. Maybe it is, fluffwise, but the railgun is far better in gaming terms, at least as it is now. Thus, they are seeing things from one angle: the fluff angle which obviously favours the eldar, thus making them fanboys IMO.

Same goes with space marines, when they claim a tac squad should be able to hold up against 100 firewarriors, without any special weapons. The SMurf player again sees things from the fluff angle, favouring him, not the Tau. If we had looked on the matter from the gaming point of view, the likely result is the marines will be shot to death.

If everybody had seen 40k simply from the fluff angle, then yes, Tau are weak, because fluff-wise they're the new kid on the block. Gamingwise, they can be just as good as any other army, although it's hard to powergame them.

Cheers mates

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Old 17 Oct 2005, 11:35   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

a fanboy is a blind devotee of a particular army, in my opinion. a fanboy will laud everything good about his army, and cuss everything about anything else. typically a lot of fanboys want a special rule almost, because their army is so uber, that they win on a 2+ regardless and that any unti that can be classified as "good" in another army is beardy.

I regard a lot of 40k fictions as being the products of fanboy-ism. Specifically the black library books which i despise with every fibre of their being. and so, there is a very hazy line in my mind as to fluff/fanboyism. people think that a space marine should kill hundreds in every engagement, like ragnar blackmane. i point out realism, and logistics and how such things are impossible. i regard this as fanboyism.

generally, the only fluff i fully accept are the "overview" bits of fluff, examples being the racial/chapter.IG regimental background etc, history of a certain conflict eg armageddon, but hero stories generally get thrown out the window in my book.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 11:56   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olannon
So agreed. A fanboy is a guy that sees things from one angle, and one angle only. For example, Eldar players refusing to admit that the railgun is a more powerful anti-tank weapon then the bright-lance, simply because it's more advanced.
I have to argue this point. The bright lance is a superior weapon in every way. The Railgun fires a magnetised brick, and need capacitors so large it must be tank/battlesuit mounted.

The Bright Lance is a one-handed weapon, capable of burning through the metres-thick Adamantium armour plating of a Warlord Titan. There is no contest, the Bright Lance is a superior weapon.

Quote:
Same goes with space marines, when they claim a tac squad should be able to hold up against 100 firewarriors, without any special weapons. The SMurf player again sees things from the fluff angle, favouring him, not the Tau. If we had looked on the matter from the gaming point of view, the likely result is the marines will be shot to death.
Now this one isn't quite right. A single Tactical Squad should be able to take on a full Platoon, maybe even two Platoons, and win with little or no casualties. Firewarriors are tricky... but overall I'd say one Marine is worth five Firewarriors; the Pulse Rifle isn't powerful enough to be a real threat to them, except in large amounts.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 12:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

I like writing tradegy into Eldar Heroe stories...I think it's befitting.
And the story that won me the fluff competition saw the Eldar Corsairs having to ally with an Imperial ships to survive against a Tyranid attack...
So, I enjoy the fluff, but I don't make it too biased towards the Eldar, am I classed as a fanboy?
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 12:56   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: What is Fluff, and what is Fanboy?

25 years? Wasn't 1st Edition released in 1987, making it 18 years old?

I think a fanboy is someone who over-inflates their chosen race and claims every other armies is crap and doesn't stand a chance - regardless of any actual fluff stating otherwise.

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