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How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...
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Old 13 May 2008, 01:14   #21 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

Yes sure, the damage done by the jetbikes might not be that impressive, but their ability to contest quaters, break through lines and attack Lootas and such, block charges and such I think are invaluable. Just running two minimalist squads only sets you back 152 points.


I am now convinced that any pie plate or blast template units within the ork ranks needs to be removed with utmost urgency in such a game, Lobbas indirect fire, right? That would be horrible if they were to catch a unit of Warp Spiders behind cover or something.


I also am convinced that against an Ork horde, unless it's an escalation game, an Eldar player should be running two farseers rather than Autarchs. Throwing an expensive autarch into combat against Orks seems to be a rather pointless ordeal, especially when they have a 6+ save anyway.

With two farseers on bike, one can have guide or doom, helping out your big killer units such as War Walkers or Scorpions, whilst another can have eldritch storm and mindwar, using his IC status and maneuverability to harry the mobs and remove any hidden powerclaw. And against a 6+ save horde, even T4, Eldritch Storm will cause a fair bit of casualties. It's, what, 5/6*1/3 (whatever that is, can't be bothered to work it out) of all the models under a large blast template, almost, will become casualties.
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Old 13 May 2008, 02:31   #22 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

Avengers wont be shot to death if you move them correctly, I dont care how many big shootas there are if you duck behind a tree to... um... take a leak or something.

and no, to answer the question about fearlessness. orks are not fearless, they just have a Ld of 30. How do you deal with that? Vyper with 2 shuricannons and Wavey with twin scats and a shuricannon, and that leadership can go down fast. That is when the avengers step in, and finally an autarch charge that makes them lose the combat by 3 kills vs. 1 wound, and they run, and he chases.

You have to time this stuff right. No way I am getting 5 of my avengers in a gunfight with 2 mobs of 30 orks each. But I sure will keep them back for when the time comes and skip in the Vyper and Serp right beforehand. Like I said I haven't played this battle... but I feel it in my bones. Again the big problem is the koptas (kafka?s) I almost misspelled that. Typin in the dark.

because they are the only element that is not obvious in its intention.

If you are playing against Eldar, you realize how fast they re-adjust to your movement, and that is how they win. You can dilly dally around with ''well this unit would have worked better" sort of notions but it really just comes down to how you use them. Something I am learning and my bro is helping me with. I wouldn't really need those 5 fire dragons either playing against a mobbed up ork ork inf army, but since they are there, use them for their wave serp.... and use the dragons as a screen for the autarch maybe?

This is why I love Harlequins with the full shabang of character upgrades..... 2 very difficult squads to pin down just hovering around the edges. They can charge you and slaughter you, they can hang back and pick at you with the shrieker cannon, they are just a nightmare to plan any consolidated move against. I would give the seers fusion pistols to bring down the kopptas and maybe shave the points off of the Autarch's mandiblaster and wings (which are cool if you actually want to charge... but I doubt if I would want to.
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Old 13 May 2008, 11:13   #23 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion
Avengers wont be shot to death if you move them correctly, I dont care how many big shootas there are if you duck behind a tree to... um... take a leak or something.
SUre, but if you're hiding behind a tree, you're not shooting at the orks either. If you can see them, they can see you, and they have a slight edge in any prolonged firefight.

Quote:
and no, to answer the question about fearlessness. orks are not fearless, they just have a Ld of 30.
Actually, they are fearless as long as there are more than 10 of them, and their leadership never goes above 10, as 10 is the highest stat possible.

Quote:
If you are playing against Eldar, you realize how fast they re-adjust to your movement, and that is how they win.
Right, but if you are playing against orks, you realize that they really don't care if you readjust or redeploy or run in circles. The ork horde is just going to keep advancing, and each six inches they move forwards is another six inches that you can't maneuver your guys in. The horde backs you into a corner, whether you're eldar or not. The more time you spend running around early in the game, the less shots you got on them and the more of them there are to control the board.

I've played this out a few times. The orks have a hard time with the eldar vehicles (who doesn't), but can largely just shake them and ignore them. Meanwhile, unless the eldar are specifically equipped to fight a horde, they just keep getting pushed into smaller and smaller spaces and cannot kill enough boyz.
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Old 13 May 2008, 12:15   #24 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

So how does one equip to fight the horde? more shuricannons? we dont have many pie plates and I didnt put a prism on this list because I am working with the models I do have. It was made to thrash Imperial Guard, but since the question came up, how would I use this list to take on an ork horde, those are the best answers I could come up with. Downgrade the Autarch and upgrade the serp and the vyper, for more gunny shuricannon shots. Only solution I could think of. As I said, this list was made to take down Guard, but to redirect it to take down orks is a different concept. You want a list that will whip the snot out of an ork horde? Too bad I don't have the models but we can mob up dire avengers with defend skill who will rip them apart on the approach, and die way to slowly in assault and nullify the ork assault advantage because the avengers simply don't go down that easy. locks up the orks. Well guess what?

I aint got 50 dire avengers so I can't try that level of cheese but when I do I will take down an ork horde like a japanese paper wall. An ork player who takes a boss, koptas, and nothin but boyz? Wow. That took some planning, huh?

Obviously playing to the strengths of the new codex. One day I may have the time to figure out how to out-horde an ork horde but for now I will stick to the army I do actually have and puzzle about how to use it.

Think of the game as a door.

The Harlequins are the key. The Vyper and Dragon Serpent turn it. The Autarch and avengers shove it open when everyone piles in at once.

Missions become a factor, because, as has been pointed out: I can dart and dodge all around the sides if I want so long as the mob is avoided. The endgame is critical in this sort of battle. my 15 avengers versus 120 boyz (minus the ones I picked at) is 3 scoring units versus 4. Not that much of a difference (well... not like 120:15 odds bad at least) Enter the Vyper. OOh my extra board quarter or objective counter at the last minute.

[hr]
just an afterthought (edit)

The Autarch gives a bonus for my chances of picking a mission. Seek-and-destroy is my obvious first choice for an army this dodgey, with the Harlequin feint and all that going for it... But I wonder what other ones to try. Take-And-Hold is out obviously because these guys are moving around too much to hold anything. Recon might be an easy one because it spends so much time skirtin around the edges anyway its not too far a stretch to fleet into the endzone on the last turn. I dunno... just musing... any thoughts or should I just stick to seek-and-destroy missions and let them kill kill kill zoom zoom zoom bang bang bang skeet skeet skeet like they have been.

Thank all yall for your input and thoughts and I feel this should become more of a 'tactica' ish thread than an army list thread and keep these thoughts going. But hey I am not a mod I dont know how to reposition things. I'm glad for all of your help though. Cheers

-jme
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Old 13 May 2008, 14:55   #25 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

With the models you have, here's what I'd recommend for playing against horde orks at 1000.

1k:

HQ:
Farseer, Doom

Troops:
10 Avengers, Dual Cat exarch, Bladestorm
Waveserpent, TL Shurican, Shurican, Spirit Stones
5 Avengers, no exarch

Elites:
8 harlequins, jester, seer, 6 kisses
Vyper, scatter laser, shuriken cannon

Fast:
5 Hawks, Talon Exarch + skyleap

Heavy:
3 reapers, exarch w/ tempest launcher, fast&crack shot.

Notes:
Your farseer needs to doom whatever the hawks are going to shoot at (#1) and failing that, what the big unit of avengers is going after (#2). Doom puts the shooting odds in favour of the avengers.

Avengers should use the range tricks.
Keep in mind these numbers:
10 avengers w/ dual exarch kill 7.5 ork boys
10 avengers w/ dual exarch kill 11.5 doomed ork boys
10 avengers w/ dual exarch bladestorming kill 9.8 ork boys
10 avengers w/ dual exarch bladestorming kill 14 doomed ork boys

So, position the Avengers to get the right number of boyz in the kill zone.
Then their skimmer fires. It has a longer range, so will start to pick off boyz who would otherwise move up to shoot you back. It should account for another 3 boys.

So, with one alpha strike, (drop-off out of the skimmer, bladestorm, then fire the skimmer), you kill 17 orks. If there were 30, they're still fearless. Ideally, you want to drop them to 7. That's where their Leadership hits '6' and they likely run for it. So, you need another 6 casualties. The vyper accounts for just about 3, and the hawks should get about 3, so that should do it.

So, there you have it. Combined fire from the vyper, the dire avengers, the hawks and the serpent should be able to drop a mob of 30 boyz to about 7 - at which point they're either running, or pretty much combat ineffective - they'll be out of your range, and will have to take a Ld test to shoot anything except the serpent. And, you get your positioning to force the serpent to be the closest target, and to ensure that you capture the powerklaw nob and any special weapons in the dire avengers limited kill range.

If, of course, everything goes to plan.

The orks will be advancing maybe three such mobs in 1000 points (that's 750 points). So, you hit one flank, and the others are not able to strike back. Avengers, of course, spend the next turn in the skimmer, and hawks (who started on the table) leap off on turn 2. Turn 3, they come in on a 3+ and the avengers are ready to strike another unit.

Meanwhile...

The tempest launcher is not a bad weapon against the horde because of the multiple templates that it drops. It will get better in 5th ed, but even now, you should be able to get some kills on the units not visible to anyone else. Fast shot gets you an extra template, but crack re-rolls wounds and ignores cover, so depending where they boyz are, you have your pick.

The harlequins:
The orks are going to advance every turn, and will probably have some sort of fast element trying to tie up your guns. Harlequins are strictly a counter-assault unit. Your main attacks (described above) should be able to take care of three full units of boyz in six turns, especially with combined fire and doom. The harlequins are more of a reserve, the reapers go for targets of opportunity. Each of these units should be positioned so that they can get their shots in without taking return fire.

If you run the harlequins out to try and out-combat the orks, you'll lose. You might win the first round of combat, but you'll probably lose a couple, and then the second unit of boyz will pile in and stomp the clowns. They're not the key, they're the reserve. The key is the farseer. He makes all the shooting that much more effective.
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Old 13 May 2008, 15:40   #26 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

Good stuff bro, and thanks... but I need to go by my belief that Harlies are not just a counter assault. They are a taunt. I don't want to change the models whatsoever just the way they are used. Hawks (haven't painted them except the exarch) anyways, would work great with a doomseer but I keep losing 1 or having a broke off wing or whatever.... The reaper idea you had is simply not viable. Too expensive, and little return. AND makes me have to worry about them and modify my battle plan to accomodate their slowness. I will only take those if Maugan is there with a fortuneseer (and that's a whole other way of thinking too) now THAT: plus 2 harlie squads and 2 minimized avenger squads, the serp, the vyp, would just dominate whatever fireline i want. BUT, i dont want a fireline, because thats the opponents ball then, how he gonna deal with that and go around it? i have to react to.

i want an advance that hints at threats and follows up with a giant attack in the endgame, just taking what needs to be taken.

thanks for the advice, but reapers just seem to me to redefine that way of playing into a firebase-oriented one and if im gonna do that i may as well just start buying some guardians or some warwalkers or something.

Like I said I could just take 50 avengers with defending exarchs and call it a day, but that wouldnt be much fun. I want to use the same models to figure out this puzzle.
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Old 13 May 2008, 16:48   #27 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

I think you'd be surprised at how viable the reaper exarch can be. Against a horde, landing 2 templates/turn with re-rolled wounds and no cover can put a lot of wounds out, at NO risk because you're an indirect fire gun and they can't get to you. No need for expensive phoenix lords, just hunker down and open fire.

It's not a fireline, it's one unit that takes opportunity shots, while a very mobile firebase skims the edges of the horde.

50 defend exarchs won't get you anywhere. I'd be happy to play through a proxy game with you to prove it if you want. Defend costs the boyz an attack each, but they still have the advantage in both # of models, and rolling to wound with what they have. Your 50 avengers+exarchs = 100 ork boyz + nobz. Do you really want to be in assault with that?
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Old 16 May 2008, 13:49   #28 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

well, obviously, no... but that's what fleet is for I would think. I have no interest in playing an army that is all one thing though it just isn't much fun. I like variety. Maybe that makes my game weaker, I don't know. Look at this list for instance:

3 falcons
50 avengers with defend exarchs
doomseer

how boring is that? But all effective. Screw that I like some variety.

or this list:
warboss
koptas
boyz

ew. (This is why the new ork codex bugs me. more boyz is just SO obvious, right?)
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Old 16 May 2008, 14:49   #29 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: How to tear apart the Imperial Guard... 1000, Plus a few tips for the kids...

I think that you may be missing the point about what I believe that Games Workshop is trying to do with the release of Codex Orks. It's a question of trying to put maneuver back into the game.

How many static Gunline army lists do you see? How much fun is it when you set up models on a table and roll dice until the models are all gone? The new six point Ork model is the answer to breaking the static gun line when Ork models are used in large amounts. The Gun Slinger has four large pie plates and numerous Scatter Lasers/Heavy Bolters/Burst Cannon ........ ? Well great, how about if we give you almost 200 targets to shoot at? Can't get 'em all? Ah, so sad. Maybe you should move a little bit .... No?

I agree with you, Centurion, that an army list made up of basically two or three different units can be .... boring ..... to play. I may yet play the next season in the Gaming League that I belong to with something other than an Ork Hoard army. But then again, I've always played an Ork Hoard army, Even when the three full (and one partial) Ork Mobz got mowed down by turn five under the old Ork Codex. I used to consider it a "Victory" just to get into hand to hand - base to base with my opponent. It wasn't (and still isn't) all about winning a game. It is, of course, about having fun. I can understand and see your concern, Centurion, about a one trick pony list quickly becoming "Not Fun" to play.

I have started an Eldar army. With no vehicles or Jet Bikes. It's made up of Eldar on foot, no jet packs. Just to try something different. And yes, I'll probably get my backside kicked in a few games. But after playing Footsloggin' Orks for the better part of five years, I have found that I can handle that.

Yes, I do see the irony in the fact that the type of army list that was played by so few of us over the years has been labeled as this year's Beardy List. But if this breaks up the Static Gun line army lists (and arguably, even Rhino Rush lists), then it has served a purpose for the Greater Good.

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