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More Haemonculi Experiments - 1500 Points
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Old 07 Jun 2010, 23:59   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Default More Haemonculi Experiments - 1500 Points

As a sequel to my Straight outta the lab list, which is in this thread:http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,96477.0.html

HQ
Archon Zhark
Punisher
Tormentor Helm
Combat Drugs
Shadow Field
Trophy Rack
140

Haemonculus
Combat Drugs
Sissorhand
Destructor
Trophy Rack
75

Haemonculus
Combat Drugs
Sissorhand
Destructor
Trophy Rack
75

Elites
9 Grotesques
Raider
Horrorfex
Screaming Jets
210

8 Grotesques
Raider
Horrorfex
Screaming Jets
195

Troops
7 Warriors
Blaster
Splinter Cannon
Syrabite
Agonizer
Raider
152

7 Warriors
Blaster
Splinter Cannon
Syrabite
Agonizer
Raider
152

10 Warriors
2 Dark Lances
100

10 Warriors
2 Dark Lances
100

10 Warriors
2 Dark Lances
100

Heavy Support
Talos
100

Talos
100

Total = 1499

**Strategy**

Much like the other list, the talos will absorb fire allowing the warrior raiders to move around freely. The two grotesque raiders (one with archon, other with Haems) will deepstrike in or turboboost towards the opponent on first turn (depending on mission type and setup). Sniper warriors provide AT shooting while the raiders deliver their cargo, and then the raiders help out with vehicles too. The talos will tear apart anything that gets within their grasp.

Lord Zambia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
Want to play Robot Wars using 40k Concepts? PM me for details on how you can get your FREE copy of the rules.
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Old 08 Jun 2010, 17:52   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SJ Area
Posts: 494
Default Re: More Haemonculi Experiments - 1500 Points

Just a reminder to those not familiar with this kind of list – it uses an advanced strategy that is not recommended to new DE players. Although some elements of this list are optimized there are some that are completely delicate in their use and are purely personal preferences. This is a themed list following a Coven format (fan based) and it’s design is deliberate – so please, no suggestions of wyches, wych type units.

On to the experiment (the lab so to speak).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Zambia
Archon Zhark, Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, Trophy Rack
I like the list, the Archon throws it off a little but the need of some sort of CC expert is typical in all Coven lists. Of course, I would love to see you drop this guy but that would make me a hypocrite as my current quasi-Coven list also has an Archon in it (to make the list more competitive).

One thing I did differently was to make the Archon more effective towards Monstrous Creatures as my store is becoming more Nid-based. So see how this guy would be struggling against the Swarmlord I opted to give him an Agoniser instead. I know I lose efficiency against marine based lists but the agoniser is still going to kill some marines regardless.

One item I did add to the Haemonculi was the Animus Vitae – I know it doesn’t sound right at first but consider this: The Archon, the Haemy and the Grotesques should win the combat resolution in most situations, the animus has an excellent chance of activating when used with the Grotesques special rule. The second thing with the animus and this deals with the Haemy is that the 2 stats that change the Haemy makes him/her a little more efficient as well. The boost in strength will allow you to re-roll your “1’s” to wound against marines (which to me is guaranteed going to happen as I suck even with poison with my dice rolls) and the added weapon skill will also allow the Haemy to hit on “3’s” against most things.

Now I was able to pull this off in a number of games and most notably against a Space Wolf player – between the Archon, the Haemys and the Grotesques the squad easily won combat (and they charged me) and made them “auto-fall back” and took 6 of the 8 fallen space wolves as slaves. This made the animus kick in and the Archon bolted off separately to charge a long fang squad while my 3 haemys and 4 remaining grotesques went off to charge a grey hunters squad. Sure, it takes some coordination, some luck and a keen eye but it can be done.


Quote:
Haemonculus, Combat Drugs, Sissorhand, Destructor, Trophy Rack
I do use the same guy but I tend to add haywires however, my lists usually uses 3 to 4 haemys together as a squad and using 4 haywire grenades together does a little better in probability than just using one – however, I do not go armor hunting with this squad primarily, it is more of a last measure thing when there is nothing else to use them against.

Quote:
9 Grotesques, Raider, Horrorfex, Screaming Jets
I take it one of the Haemys will ride in this one. With only 1 haemy in the raider you will have to be extraordinarily cautious of where you land this unit through deep strike. I use 2 or 3 haemys (if not 4) in a grot squad like this and the idea is using multiple flamers and drugs with all the scissor hands will make them fairly effective no matter who they face – having just one Haemy is a little anemic to get really aggressive with. If I was using this unit in a deepstrike situation, I would be landing them about 12” from their target (allowing for a scatter of 6 to 7”) and hope that the target is within range to flame next turn. Of course, I use nightshields on all my skimmers (including this one) and the idea is to keep the rapid-firing bolters from playing a factor in downing my raider – this one is even more fragile to because the lack of it (just something to think about) hopefully, the horrorfex will give you some relief.

Quote:
8 Grotesques, Raider, Horrorfex, Screaming Jets
Ah, the alpha-strike raider. I take it that the Archon and Haemy will ride here. Even though it only has 1 haemy in the squad I still like the unit and think it will do pretty good. You can get a little more aggressive with it than the other one but still, you will have to keep it form getting multi-charged so keep it on the fringe of the enemy line.

Quote:
7 Warriors, Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Syrabite, Agonizer, Raider
The bread and butter unit, the other source of power weapons to your list. I like however if you are going to use a Sybarite with an agoniser then either consider plasma grenades or at least a horrorfex for the raider. If you the target is pinned then you do not need the plasma and the squad will hit at initiative order otherwise you will just have to use them defensively (but spending that kind of points on a power weapon just to defend yourself seems a waste, poison blades would be better for that).

One thing I am starting to realize is the efficiency of the agoniser in a squad like this. This squad doesn’t survive long enough to really take advantage of the agoniser – they get stuck in combat and lose. Again, that’s more of a defensive observation, I am sure if you charge both raider squads at a target you should get better results.

Quote:
10 Warriors, 2 Dark Lances
I am sure I am repeating myself but I will state it again, I usually hate this kind of unit but since you got 2 Talos that are going to draw fire and will probably baby-sit the sniper squad the first couple of turns then you can get away with 1 or 2 of these squads. Not sure of 3 but if they are not terribly spread out then perhaps they should do fine. In my lists I do usually have at least one of this sniper type units but I bump them up to 16 strong. They usually do not get shot at until later in the game while the Talos are still alive but on occasion they do get some fire – I just like mine a little more durable than just 10 wounds sitting in a ruin camping on an objective.

Quote:
Talos
I like these guys a lot and they do a lot of good things for the list that some do not realize. They draw fire but they also baby-sit the sniper squads on the first turn and if you think that the enemy drop pods will not try to take out those sniper squads (or the Talos) then think again – this is exactly what you want to happen. Any attention that these guys get is just a bonus and really frees up the rest of the list.

I am curious though of how you are using the Raider Squads in the opening turns. With the Talos being slow and the 2 squads deepstriking you will have a turn or two of the raider squads being a target – if you are not careful, the opponent my decide to ignore the Talos and take shots at the raider squads while they are waiting for everything to arrive.

In my list (a 2000 point list) I put the Talos up front and an easy target but I tend to put only 1 raider squad on the table (while I put the other 3 into reserves). Even with 3 monstrous creatures going at the enemy I have found that my opponent will still target the lone Raider Squad with something. My fear with your list is that a savvy player may just decide to take out the Raider Squads knowing that the Talos and HQ are not an issue on the first turn and ignore them.

Example, against another Space Wolf player the opponent dropped a pod of 10 grey hunters to get a shot at the single Raider squad I put on the table. He did pop the raider with meltas but they were immediately jumped by 2 Talos while the 3rd talos charged the pod. The Talos all survived but I was still surprised to see the Raider Squad get that kind of attention instead of the grey hunters firing on the Talos.

Of course I love the list and although I have never played a Coven list at this low of a point level I like what I see – I just might try it out soon.

Good luck and happy hunting!!!
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Old 08 Jun 2010, 23:57   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: More Haemonculi Experiments - 1500 Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Kwi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Zambia
Archon Zhark, Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, Trophy Rack
I like the list, the Archon throws it off a little but the need of some sort of CC expert is typical in all Coven lists. Of course, I would love to see you drop this guy but that would make me a hypocrite as my current quasi-Coven list also has an Archon in it (to make the list more competitive).
I was going to take a dracon but realised the extra wound and extra attack probably helps the cause. I was actually going to use the Archon in the squad of 9 Grotes, leaving the 2 Haems with the other squad. This would mean both squads would put up a decent fight but I do see that if either of them are multicharged it could turn nasty. I am therefore thinking of perhaps dropping the second raider and footslogging the second squad of Grotes with maybe another Haem, and having the one uber unit with 2 Haemys and the Archon deepstrike in. It would give me points to use some good wargear too.

Quote:
One thing I did differently was to make the Archon more effective towards Monstrous Creatures as my store is becoming more Nid-based. So see how this guy would be struggling against the Swarmlord I opted to give him an Agoniser instead. I know I lose efficiency against marine based lists but the agoniser is still going to kill some marines regardless.
This is very true and I do come across Chaos and Nids more often now (though I meet more Chaos MCs than Nids actually) and I realise that against a T6 critter I will be wounding on 5s at best with the punisher. Personally though punishers are much much more suited to space marine killing, because if I take 3 drugs I can be almost sure of surviving (and keeping shadow field intact – hence why I love the Archon’s extra wound for drug mishaps) and I can have 6 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s with rerolls, wounding on 3s. If I do come up against a monstrous creature, my Haems will have to do the best they can. I find the sheer amount of poison attacks Haems inject into enemies that models with a 3+ save are easy to cope with. While the agonizer would be better again, because I am against more Daemons than nids the invul saves will negate the pros of the Agonizer. I haven't playtested this list yet, but will sometime in the future – that is the only way really to see what these guys do outside of the lab testing room.

Quote:
One item I did add to the Haemonculi was the Animus Vitae – I know it doesn’t sound right at first but consider this: The Archon, the Haemy and the Grotesques should win the combat resolution in most situations, the animus has an excellent chance of activating when used with the Grotesques special rule. The second thing with the animus and this deals with the Haemy is that the 2 stats that change the Haemy makes him/her a little more efficient as well. The boost in strength will allow you to re-roll your “1’s” to wound against marines (which to me is guaranteed going to happen as I suck even with poison with my dice rolls) and the added weapon skill will also allow the Haemy to hit on “3’s” against most things.
The animus vitae definitely has its use, but at 15 points I am not sure if it would be a wise investment at a lower points limit. I often find I use the drugs to boost WS to be able to hit on 3s, and also often boost strength too, because 1’s show up more than 6’s these days…

Quote:
Quote:
Haemonculus, Combat Drugs, Sissorhand, Destructor, Trophy Rack
I do use the same guy but I tend to add haywires however, my lists usually uses 3 to 4 haemys together as a squad and using 4 haywire grenades together does a little better in probability than just using one – however, I do not go armor hunting with this squad primarily, it is more of a last measure thing when there is nothing else to use them against.
Because I was quite short on points at a lower point limit, I was assuming these guys would die (to be safe) so I used 3 sniper squads to give me the AT abilities I require when against mech armies, a more common sighting at 1500 points than 1000. With the modifications of the list perhaps I will put them in. I’ll have to have a jingle in the lab and see what I can brew up.

Quote:

I use nightshields on all my skimmers (including this one) and the idea is to keep the rapid-firing bolters from playing a factor in downing my raider – this one is even more fragile to because the lack of it (just something to think about) hopefully, the horrorfex will give you some relief.
I would love to put night shields on the deepstriking raiders for exactly this reason, but 15 points is quite an investment. However, it could pay dividends when it is the difference between being charged or charging the occupants.

Quote:
Quote:
10 Warriors, 2 Dark Lances
I am sure I am repeating myself but I will state it again, I usually hate this kind of unit but since you got 2 Talos that are going to draw fire and will probably baby-sit the sniper squad the first couple of turns then you can get away with 1 or 2 of these squads. Not sure of 3 but if they are not terribly spread out then perhaps they should do fine. In my lists I do usually have at least one of this sniper type units but I bump them up to 16 strong. They usually do not get shot at until later in the game while the Talos are still alive but on occasion they do get some fire – I just like mine a little more durable than just 10 wounds sitting in a ruin camping on an objective.
I think I will remove one sniper squad for a mobile team of 3 jetbikes (with 2 blasters) which are cheaper and much more manouverable with our ability to JSJ. The talos will be drawing more attention than 3 bikes I am pretty certain, and it means I will be able to be more mobile.

Quote:

I am curious though of how you are using the Raider Squads in the opening turns. With the Talos being slow and the 2 squads deepstriking you will have a turn or two of the raider squads being a target – if you are not careful, the opponent my decide to ignore the Talos and take shots at the raider squads while they are waiting for everything to arrive.

In my list (a 2000 point list) I put the Talos up front and an easy target but I tend to put only 1 raider squad on the table (while I put the other 3 into reserves). Even with 3 monstrous creatures going at the enemy I have found that my opponent will still target the lone Raider Squad with something. My fear with your list is that a savvy player may just decide to take out the Raider Squads knowing that the Talos and HQ are not an issue on the first turn and ignore them.
This list loves playing spearhead deployments, where there are long and large flanks. The Talos take the bee line straight to the enemy while the raiders lurk into the sides of the board, meaning that the Talos is actually a closer threat. Mentally the opponent thinks I am coming for him slowly but surely and will often launch a counter attack straight up the middle. If they move towards the middle, the raiders charge inwards, and the alpha strikers deepstrike behind them, sending them into chaos. I use numbers to win combat, and use the sweep to leapfrog even closer to the rest of their army.

One thing I see missing from this list though is much anti-heavy infantry fire such as disintegrators. Against marines particularly splinter rifles just simply aren’t enough. This list is a close combat list however, and talos really shred marines to pieces in combat and take little damage in return. Again, I will have to test it but I can see a few changes I want to possibly make before then.

Ok, I have modified the list somewhat, and here it is below:



HQ
Archon Zhark
Punisher
Tormentor Helm
Combat Drugs
Shadow Field
Trophy Rack
Animus Vitae
155

Haemonculus
Combat Drugs
Sissorhand
Destructor
Haywyre grenades
74

Haemonculus
Combat Drugs
Sissorhand
Destructor
Haywyre grenades
74

Haemonculus
Combat Drugs
Sissorhand
Stinger
Trophy Rack
65

Elites
10 Grotesques
150

7 Grotesques
Raider
Horrorfex
Screaming Jets
180

Troops
7 Warriors
Blaster
Splinter Cannon
Syrabite (Plasma)
Agonizer
Raider
154

7 Warriors
Blaster
Splinter Cannon
Syrabite (Plasma)
Agonizer
Raider
154

10 Warriors
2 Dark Lances
100

10 Warriors
2 Dark Lances
100

Fast Attack
3 Jetbikes
2 Blasters
95

Heavy Support
Talos
100

Talos
100

Total = 1501
__________________
Learn about the world from a different prospective - www.uncyclopedia.org

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
Want to play Robot Wars using 40k Concepts? PM me for details on how you can get your FREE copy of the rules.
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