[arguleon-veq]

Ok, I need to decide what to finish my list with. The things already included are pretty definate although I am open to suggestions on squad sizes and options etc.

This list is designed to take on all comers and will be the list I will use when I finally paint up my models and go to a major tourney.

[size=14pt]Craftworld Charon - Spectral Warhost of Sonqueel[/size]

10 Black Defender Guardians: 177 Points
Starcannon [2 Crew],
Warlock:
Conceal,
Witchblade.

10 Black Defender Guardians: 177 Points
Brightlance [2 Crew],
Warlock:
Conceal,
Witchblade.

Wraitlord: 120 Points
Brightlance,
2 Flamers.

Avatar: 80 Points

Falcon: 210 Points
Starcannon,
Shuriken Cannon,
Holo-Field,
Spirit Stone.

[size=12pt]Seer Council:[/size] 356 Points
Farseer Sonqueel:
Witchblade,
Fortune,
Ghosthelm,
RoWi,
Shuriken Pistol.
Farseer Eldamari:
Witchblade,
Guide,
Ghosthelm,
RoWi,
Shuriken Pistol.
Farseer Ertai:
Witchblade,
Mind-War,
Ghosthelm,
RoWi,
Shuriken Pistol.
6 Warlocks:
Embolden,
Enhance,
2 X Augment,
6 X CC Weapon & Shuriken Pistol.

2 Vypers: 150 Points
Starcannon,
Spirit Stone.

Vyper: 75 Points
Brightlance,
Spirit Stones.

1345 Points
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Now this leaves me with 155 Points to fill.

I could have:

7 Warp Spiders

7 Scorps:
Exarch:
Scorpions Claw,
Stealth.

Vyper with Starcannon and Spirit Stones to join 1 Vyper squad
Vyper with Brightlance and Spirit Stones to join the other.

Fire Prism:
Holo-Field,
Spirit Stones.

Wave Serpent [for Council]:
Brightlance,
Spirit Stones.
2 more Witchblades for the Council.

6 Fire Dragons:
Exarch:
Fire-Pike,
Burning Fist.

13 Storm Guardians:
2 Flamers.
Warlock:
Emobolden,
Witchblade,
Pistol.

10 Dire Avengers:
Exarch:
Power Sword,
Distract.

4 Dark Reapers

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Sounds like you're looking to do most of your damage at range. I really like the Falcon and your Vyper units.

The Avatar looks kind of lonely out there. Is he going to be marching up next to the Wraithlord or the Seer Council?

Also- I don't understand why you need a 3rd Farseer in the Council. Are you planning on spending a lot of turns in close combat with them? IMHO, 2 is fine and maybe just throw the Mind War on the one with Fortune, since you can't Fortune Invulnerable saves.

For you add-on options, I'm a big fan of the Scorpion Unit. They give your other close combat units staying power, and the PFist option.

Just my .02

[arguleon-veq]

Yeh, should have explained how I use my list really.

I tend to set up a fire-base with the two Guardian squads (13 models total in each) and have them flank my Council. The Council then can protect the Guardians from any central close combat assault (so they are a counter charging unit). My WL and Avatar go at the far side of each Guardian squad and protect them from flank attacks. From here the Council can help nearby squads and are my main combat unit (you can cast Fortune on theCouncil itself, which is what most Ulthwe players do to make the Council almost un-killable). The Falcon and Vypers will roam the battle-field eliminating key targets.

Now, this will only be used against an army that will be coming at me. When they do, my line will step (after a few turns of long range fire), unleash Shuriken and then charge, with the charging Guardians getting support from either the Council, WL or Avatar. As all my units can move and fire all weapons I can also be flexible and go for objectives etc.

Against an enemy static army the force will have a lot more to do, but should lay down enough fire-power on the move and still pack a punch when it comes to the charge.

Scorps are one of my top options so far too, as they can stay with my army and pack an extra counter punch when an assault oriented enemy comes at me or take the fight to the enemy early against a static army.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Okay that makes much more sense now. It's a counter-charge type list with no fixed points. That's the Eldar way!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the local GW store, they're telling us that Fortune cannot be used on an invulnerable save (such as rune armor or cover saves) from the 4th Ed. Q&A from a White Dwarf. Now- I have not seen this document myself, but that's what they're telling us. If this is correct, I think that's a pretty horrible ruling, considering all the 3+/4+ armies that are out there (forget the fact that Blood Angels, World Eaters, and Necrons are all T4 also...). Seer councils got screwed by this ruling, and fortune is basically only good for the Eldar models that don't really need it.

I hope this is just a rumor. The Ulthwe' Seer council is a "Best Buy".

I'd still stick with the Scorpions. Also, have you considered Swooping Hawks? For the points you need, you can get a 5 man squad with one Exarch with the WOS +Sustained Attack. This works wonders for taking out hordes, and can wipe out a pesky Space Marine Dev squad in one turn.

[arguleon-veq]

The FAQ from the GW website states that Fortune can be used on Inv Sv's, it's a major aspect of an Ulthwe army. I have every WD from the last 8 years..........I think your local GW store are cheating your Ulthwe players out of one of their major strengths.

Swooping Hawks are ok (although when I do use them I like to take 2, none upgraded 5 man squads to harass, get extra grenade packs and take objectives), but I think they don't work in this list. A major aspect of this list is that, unusually for Eldar, It isn't at all fragile. Hawks are, Scorpions would keep in with this resiliance of the rest of the list.

What about the other options though? Spiders are quite resiliant.

[Tau-killer]

Originally Posted by Yriel of Iyanden

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the local GW store, they're telling us that Fortune cannot be used on an invulnerable save (such as rune armor or cover saves) from the 4th Ed. Q&A from a White Dwarf. Now- I have not seen this document myself, but that's what they're telling us. If this is correct, I think that's a pretty horrible ruling, considering all the 3+/4+ armies that are out there (forget the fact that Blood Angels, World Eaters, and Necrons are all T4 also...). Seer councils got screwed by this ruling, and fortune is basically only good for the Eldar models that don't really need it.

Tell them (as politely as you can!) that they're speaking rubbish. *I quote directly from the 4th edition Eldar FAQ:

Q. The Seer Council used the Fortune power throughout the game to reroll
their saves. We were under the impression that they could not do
that, since the Fortune power SPECIFICALLY identifies Armour and
Cover saves and doesn't mention Invulnerable saves (two out of three
mentioned seems pretty intentional).

A. Fortune does apply to Invulnerable saves. Unfortunately Gav assumed that
the Rune Armour save, being Invulnerable, would be covered by the wording
(Doh!).

The Eldar 4th edition FAQ can be found at this topic here:
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=6935.0

So, if they start telling you that fortune can't be used for invulnerables, then ask them to show you the White Dwarf where it says you can't - and ten to one they won't be able to.

Anyway, Arguleon Veq - that looks like a very nice list with good tactics. *I personally think that scorpion's are the best bet for finishing off the list - get those infiltrating scorps up the field to quickly close with the enemy and prevent shots from firing at your precious guardians. *

However one thing - you haven't got much anti tank stuff. *You have a bright lance which unfortunately will miss half the time and vypers are horribly vulnerable, even with spirit stone. *The pulse laser's nice but it's not much use against landraiders and the avatar and wraithlord need to get into cc to be effective. *I would recommend if you can giving plasma and haywire grenades to the scorps. *They'll be able to infiltrate up the field and with luck and good use of cover, you might be able to use them as an elite tank busting infiltrating squad.

[Yriel of Iyanden]

Wow! Now I can come back with a Seer Council and wreak havoc once more! Thanks guys!

Overall versatility- we're all in agreement that Scorpions are the way to go. Tau-Killer is dead on about the BL on a Vyper- I have one on my Saim-Hann list, and it generally does nothing unless I Guide it. The best place for a BL is a Wave Serpent, or a Wraithlord (except I always MISS with my Wraithlord/BL, hence his nickname, "Brick").

Warp Spiders are excellent harass troops. They are (with Withdraw power) also excellent bait troops, and I've used them a few times to draw expensive enemy combat units right into my Striking Scorpion charge. The problem I see with taking them on this list, though, is that you'll have one less tank/character busting option than you would with the SS's.

I tend to see Scorpions as more generalist troops than CC specialists, because honestly, they can do a little of everything, but a lot on the CC side. I take them on ALL my craftworld variants, even where you're allowed only one elites choice.

I'd maybe try a Scatter Laser on the Vyper with a Brightlance, and take a beefy Scorpion Unit instead.

[Restayvien]

I think most of what can be said has been already...but I like the list. If you wanted a more defensive unit for taking out tanks had you considered Distort or Vibro Cannons Veq?

[arguleon-veq]

There are 3 BL's in the force, 2 at BS 4. Plus as many of my S6 weapons are fast vehicle mounted they should be able to hit enemy vehicle side and rear armour.

Still, a little more anti-tank is never a bad thing.

Support weapons are an option, but like Reapers, are very vulnerable in 4th Ed. A little too vulnerable for this force I think. D-Cannons can hide behind things, but their short range ensures that they are still vulnerable.

I think so far, I'm left with [as options]

Dragons,
Scorps
All the vehicle options.

[arguleon-veq]

Im coming back to this thread due to some playtesting today [swapping the Witchblades for Singing Spears, dropping the Ghosthelms and adding another Witchblade in the Council], Its better than making a whole new thread on it.

I had three games:

Game 1:

Opponent - Iron Warriors
Result - Solid Victory

Game 2:

Opponent - Eldritch Raiders
Result - Victorious Slaughter

Game 3:

Opponent - Salamanders
Result - Draw

I was testing out the Fire Dragons from my list of possible options to finish off the 1500 point force. Mounted in the Falcon and just to generally to help try and take anything down that the Falcon was gunning for.

Game 1:

The Dragons dismounted early in order to shoot down a pair of Obliterators. They killed both. They then went on to take around 24 Bolt shots, 3 Plasma and 2 Lascannon that left the Exarch alive who then went on to shoot down a nearby Vindicator. He was eventually killed off in close combat by a Daemon Prince.

Game 2:

Again, a relatively early dismount in order to deal with a dangerous enemy HQ Retinue. They shot 3 down but were behind their Falcon so couldn't be charged plus the Retinue had more pressing matters. The squad then took a turn of shooting and a charge from 5 Jetbikes with Bio Explosive Ammo, losing 3 models. They went on to destroy the Jetbikes in combat. They survived the battle with 3 models left.

Game 3:

Some unfortunate rolling with my Falcans Spirit Stones and my complete inability to shoot down any Assault Terminators left my Falcon an easy target despite needing 6's to hit. Still, it was a penetrating Lascannon shot that made them disembark. After this a Whirlwind and a pair of Heavy Bolters hit them. The Exarch went on to shoot a Marine down, charge in, kill 2, survive, kill another two then finally get dragged down in combat. So I didn't really get the oppertunity to use the squad properly in this battle but I was impressed with the Exarch.

So in all, I think I'll take the Dragons in the final list. Plus, I've already painted a flame pattern on my Falcon to show it as my dedicated Falcon transport.

[size=14pt]Craftworld Charon - Spectral Warhost of Sonqueel[/size]

10 Black Defender Guardians: 180 Points
Starcannon [2 Crew],
Warlock:
Conceal,
Singing Spear.

10 Black Defender Guardians: 180 Points
Brightlance [2 Crew],
Warlock:
Conceal,
Singing Spear.

Wraitlord: 120 Points
Brightlance,
2 Flamers.

Avatar: 80 Points

Falcon: 210 Points
Starcannon,
Shuriken Cannon,
Holo-Field,
Spirit Stone.

[size=12pt]Seer Council:[/size] 352 Points
Farseer Sonqueel:
Witchblade,
Fortune,
Ghosthelm,
RoWi,
Shuriken Pistol.
Farseer Eldamari:
Singing Spear,
Guide,
RoWi,
Shuriken Pistol.
Farseer Ertai:
Singing Spear,
Mind-War,
RoWi,
Shuriken Pistol.
6 Warlocks:
Embolden,
Enhance,
2 X Augment,
6 X CC Weapon & Shuriken Pistol.

2 Vypers: 150 Points
Starcannon,
Spirit Stone.

Vyper: 75 Points
Brightlance,
Spirit Stones.

6 Fire Dragons: 151 Points
Exarch,
Firepike,
Burning Fist.

1498 Points

[size=12pt]2000 Points:[/size]

For the 2000 point list I think I would take in addition to the list above:

Vyper: 75 Points
Brightlance,
Spirit Stones.

14 Guardians: 160
2 Flamers,
Warlock,
Witchbalde,
Shuriken Pistol,
Destructor.

6 Warp Spiders: 132 Points

3 Shadow Weavers: 135 Points

502 Points

Combined Total : 2000 Points