[djdjt05]

Unfortunaly I had to sell 99% of my armys recently but at least it gave me the chance to start again with any race I wanted and im proud to say ive traded in my pulse rifles for witchblades! Heres my first shot at a Ulthwe army list:

HQ

SEER COUNCIL
Farseer, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Mind War
Farseer, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Guide, Fortune
Warlock, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Augment
Warlock, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Embolden
Warlock, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Enhance
Warlock, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol

TROOPS

20 Black Gaurdian Defenders
Warlock, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Conceal

18 Black Storm Gaurdians
Warlock, Witch Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Conceal

FAST ATTACK

1 Vyper, Brightlance, Spirit Stone, Holo field
1 Vyper, Starcannon, Spirit Stone, Holo field

HEAVY SUPPORT

Wraithlord, Brightlance

TOTAL COST = 1000 pts

I have played 1 game with this list and it ended in a draw against ultramarines with only 1 Farseer & my wraithlord left and him having only 3 Scouts, 2 Tactical Marines and an imobilised predator left. Two things ive learnt strait away is that I need conceal on my gaurdians as bolters are a pain in the arse and mind war is cool(took out a Captain on my first turn!).

Any suggestions/comments?

[arguleon-veq]

You need some meat shields in your Seer Council, I'd also get another Farseer to give Fortune too or else you will be wasting it half the time. I wouldn't give your Augment or basic Warlock Witchblades either as they will be some of the first that you will lose.

I'd drop the Holo-Fields on the Vypers, they are too expensve to take on such cheap vehicles.

For your agressive squad, your Storm Guardians, I'd rather swap them for Defender Guardians, the extra Shuricat shots will be more of a bonus and you can still charge after firing.

[Restayvien]

I must say that I like that list, but like Veq I would exchange those Stormies for Defenders. If you haven't the models however then I would give the Warlock Enhance instead of Conceal.

You may want to loose the Witchblade in the Guardian Defender squad, as thats really a waste of 15 points (unless you intend to get them into combat, and even then one Witchblade won't help that much).

I wouldn't get another Farseer as Veq suggested (although obviously that choice is yours!) but I would definitely drop the Witchblades on your Augment and basic Warlocks.
Use those points to buy one more basic Warlock to 'flesh-out' your Seer Council.

Like Veq said, drop the Holo-Fields on the Vypers (saving you 50 points!) because if you follow the Vyper handbook
( ) and do the following:

- Always move above 6" (Glancing hits only!)
- Utilize cover
- Use Spirit Stones
- Don't get too close (minimise incoming fire)

- then they should be survivable enough.

[Master Lytaing]

indeed, replace 50% warlocks witchblades with CCW's and then meat shield the seer council.

Seercouncil
3 Farseers
5 Warlocks, 3 CCW's

2x 20 Black guard. defenders

2 Vypers, bright lances

wraithlord, bright lance, or starcannon

[Tau-killer]

I agree with just about everything that's been said here. Replace witchblades on the warlocks with the cc weapon/shuriken pistol option and get rid of the holo fields. Use the extra points to perhaps get a heavy weapons platform to go with the black guardian defenders - and take advantage of that BS 4 weaponry.

I don't think you need to drastically spend any more points on the seer council at this stage - it is only a 1000 point army, but I think that once you've cut out some warlock witchblades and also guide (yes, cut guide, you're only going to use one psychic power per turn and that should be fortune on the seer council and guide's very expensive) you have some extra points to perhaps spend on one or two extra warlocks as meatshields and perhaps useful little things such as ROWs for the farseers perhaps.

[sinfox]

for a giggle i'll chyme in also. (probably repeating most of what was said before in the process ^^

seer council:

farseer having another power alongside fortune: big no no. there's no reason why you will not be casting fortune on a unit. it's pretty much a requirement every turn.

guide: will only be a real requirement once those guardians get within 12" assault range. the only other use for it i can see is the vypers, which will be zipping about the field and probably won't be within guide range, unless you're planning on having the wraithlord ponder up the field with the seer council maybe

six witchblades: they're wonderful pieces of kit, however their price adds up rather quickly. in lists i draw up, usually only the farseers and perhaps the warlocks without augment will carry the witchblades.

extra wounds: a basic warlock with cc/sp/augment. hell, they don't even need augment. i usually place circa two>three warlocks in a council with this configuration.

troops:

you're basically presenting two huge targets to your opponent. these two targets are only of use if they make it to 12" and then get stuck in.. depending on who you go up against, this could pose a small issue as you could potentially be shredded before you manage to get there - remember, you're only presenting two targets (as your main body of troops). although granted, they're covered by the warlock's 5+ cover save.

this would tempt me to spit the storm guardians into three groups of six and tooling them with the maximum allocation of flamers/fusion guns. the flip side to this is that you now have three groups and one spare warlock (unless you spend more points on keeping these blighters safe) so i'd be more inclined to..

drop the storm squad and drop the witchblades from the warlocks you have there. i believe that a more elite unit would have better luck in the storm guardians stead, while the points shaved off from other areas could better distribute your points of attack and also present more targets for your opponant to shoot at. i'm also of the opinion that it's criminal to not utilise the black guardians bs4 on a starcanon or bright lance.

fast attack:

i must admit, i'm a convert. i thought vypers were useless at first glance, however after the preaching i've heard here i can say with some resonance that "i believe". the premiss of the vyper is simple - a cheap mobile weapons platform. emphasis on the cheap here; it's natural to want to protect your bright lance/starcannon, however, overloading the little blighter with equipment obliterates what makes this unit so spellbindingly good in the first place. best config is: vyper/weapon/spirit stones.

heavy:

i like wraithlords, i like em a lot. no real suggestions here.


i worry slightly at the lack of long range multi-shot weapons. granted your wraithlord is bs 4, however the little vypers aren't so fortunate. and you have the glorious bs4 guardians in there too.. with all of the above in mind, i threw this together. i tried to keep to your original list as best as i could, and only alter small parts.

.. but i think i failled miserably ^^;; anyways - i'd expect this to be slightly more balanced and points effective perhaps.


seer council

farseer/witchblade/sp/mind war
farseer/witchblade/sp/fortune
warlock/cc/sp/enhance
warlock/cc/sp/embolden
warlock/cc/sp/augment
warlock/cc/sp/augment
warlock/cc/sp/augment

229

elites

striking scorps x 10
exarch upgrade
stealth

192

troops

8 black guardians
starcannon + 2 crew
warlock/cc/sp/conceal

16 black guardians
warlock/cc/sp/conceal

308

fast attack

vyper
bright lance
spirit stones

vyper
starcannon
spirit stones

150

heavy

wraithlord
bright lance

120

total - 999

it's late and my brain's shutting down, it's possible i made a gaffe with my maths - i already did it once while compiling this list, forgetting to include a warlock in the mix. so i hope that's accurate ^^;;

i hope that was of some use to you.


-sin

[Tau-killer]

Seeing as I'm the self-appointed mathematical expert here....

Nope, your maths is right. It comes to 999 points. bTW I'm presuming that the black guardians there are black guardian defenders (well, since they have weapon platforms I suppose they'd have to be.)

Now, I like what Sin's done. He's done what we've recommended - re getting rid of holo fields and changing the seer council but he's also done one other very important thing. Before, there were two main infantry targets: - now there are 3, and one of them is getting up the field quite quickly to hopefully silence some guns so less will be firing at the guardian squads when they advance, both guardian squads being guardian defenders. Now, the question is, should you take two guardian defender squads or one defender and one storm squad. Now my answer is that in that army, you already have a cc squad (the scorpions) - don't take another, just take two nice and shooty guardian defenders, who can still stand up for themselves in assault after assaulting a squad which has been obliterated by shuriken catapult fire.

But about 'Penguin's initial army, I have to say that I am not sure whether storm guardians or defender guardians are the best. The thing is - storm guardians die easily. Anything with T3 and 5+ save dies extremely quickly - and that's why you really need conceal. However if you give them conceal you miss out on the chance to get a brilliant WS unit which'll be hitting marines on a 3+! However the point is - what is the point of taking that upgrade if the guardians are going to get shot to pieces anyway before they reach cc....

[djdjt05]

Thanks guys good advice all round I think.

I have been thinking of going down the road of 3 defender squads rather than 1 defender 1 storm and heavy weapons platforms are in the pipeline (just bought 1 ;D). I think your right on the money with the Vypers as well im going to drop the holo fields (help pay for more star cannons!).

The only thing id be reluctant to change is the seer council and there witchblades. I agree that theres no point in having fortune and guide on the same farseer and I could do with 1 more farseer as well. Id be reluctant to drop the witch blades on the warlocks as when they got into combat (advancing just behind the guardians) they were unbelievable and it took nearly 2 full tactical marines squads to hold them in combat. But on the other hand if I want another farseer then I think they might have to go.

with regards to the striking scorpions I am wanting to add a unit of aspect warriors in the near future (possibly as I go up to 1500pts) but im getting conflicting advice on what to take ive got it down to either striking scorpions, howling banshies or fire dragons. A lot of people are telling me that these are the ones to use against SM (4 out of 5 games are against SM round here unfortunately) but again ive had people say howling banshies are a waste of time. Does anyone here use banshies and if so how do they do against SM's?

[arguleon-veq]

A tooled out Scorpion squad gets more of a return than Banshees against regular Tac Squad Marines. Banshees are only good against 2+ Sv or really high initiative foes.

Scorps are also better against lightly armoured opponents. They are pretty much better all around IMO.

[Tau-killer]

I've decided to test them out mathematically - much like what happened when we tested out guardians and Dire Avengers. I'll test them firstly in this way:

I'll take 10 striking scorpions in a squad and 10 howling banshees in a squad. They both cost the same amount of points so that should make things nice and easy. I'll pit them against 8 normal tactical marines and see how many they each kill from shooting and then cc and then see how many they lose from return combat. Firstly striking scorpions...

1.1 marines dead from shooting
3.3 marines dead from cc
4.4 marines dead overall

0.395 scorpions dead from return combat

Now Howling Banshees...

1.1 marines dead from shooting
5 marines dead from cc
6.1 marines dead overall

0.315 banshees dead from return combat

Now, intitally you can see the the banshees are more effective. They've killed more marines and statistically lost less people than the scorpions have. However, there are lots of ways to upgrade the squads, so now I'll test them with upgrades. I'll make one of the scorpions an exarch and give him scorpion's claw. I'll also make one of the banshee's an exarch and give her an executioner. once I've worked out how many marines have been killed I'll have to divide that by the number of points the squad now costs and multiply it by the initial cost of the squad (when there were just a normal ten of each aspect) to get a proper rellitave points cost.

Now, tooled up striking scorpions...

1.416 marines dead from shooting
3.083 marines dead from cc
4.49 marines dead overall so far

0.38 scorpions dead from return combat
2.2 marines killed from the exarch's attaks (remember he strikes last)
6.69 marines dead overall

Now I have to make that total relative. 6.69/187*160 = 5.7 marines dead. That is a huge improvement on the previous total of 4.4 marines dead in the first test.

Now banshees:

1.138 marines dead from shooting
5.83 marines dead from cc
6.972 marines dead overall.

0.17 banshees dead from return combat.

Now... 6.972/181*160 = 6.16 marines dead. The banshees haven't improved as much but they're still killing more than the scorpions and they're still losing less casualties than the scorpions.

Conclusion
Now, we can see from this that at pure assaulting, the banshees are better than the scorpions and are by no means a waste of time. However this only works if the banshees are the ones doing the assaulting. It could be quite a different story if the Marines are the ones doing the assaulting. The aspect warriors will still attack first (scorps because of initiative and banshees because of inititative and their masks) but the scorpions will come off better because when it's the marines turn to strike (and they will have a greater number of attacks due to charging) the scorpions will be able to shrug off a greater number of attacks due to their armour save.
Also the scorpions have an advantage when advancing towards the enemy. For a few more points they can infiltrate, allowing them to get closer to the enemy quickly and reducing the number of turns during which they can be shot at, while the banshees either have to take a Wave Serpent taxi or walk - and there is a good chance that they could be mown down all too easily due to infantry fire.

So this tells us about how we should use these two units to greatest effect. Banshees are essentially hit and run units. Keep them under cover, keep them protected, keep them hidden and then - WHAM, unleash them at the right moment and watch them unleash hell on the enemy. They're meant for a quick strike, and then on to the next target. Scorpions are more front line troops. they can advance under fire and they also die much less easily through shooting and combat, making them ideal for situations where you need them to hold a flank or hold a table quarter or hold an objective at all costs.

Anyway, I hope that helped Red Planet Penguin. I hope you can see that Banshees are most definitely not a waste of time. They are an assault squad like scorpions, but like so much else of the Eldar army, you just have to use them in the right way for them to become really effective. ;D