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Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?
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Old 09 Jun 2010, 21:44   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

So flipping through the Apoc Reloaded book, I was looking through all the formations for Eldar and reading about the Pheonix court. All 6 Pheonix Lords are in the same squad, so how do all their abilities work together? Ive tried looking on the GW site and they don't really have any FAQ's on anything Apocalypse related.

When using bladestorm, who exactly gets additional shots? It says shuriken weapons so would that count Karandras' shuriken catapult on his scorpion fist? Also, Maugan Ra's ancient shuriken cannon? Would only those models not be able to shoot the following turn? Or is it safe to assume the abilities only affect that model, and not the entire formation.

How would allocating wounds work? Since the avatar has immunities to certain weapon types, the opponent would still need to roll to wound against majority toughness and then I could put say, a multi melta wound on the avatar and not have to roll a save? or on Fuegan and use his 'feel no pain' rule if I fail the save? It also says on pg 49 of the rulebook that unless in a unit of monstrous creatures, a monstrous creature can be picked out as a seperate target.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 00:02   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

There's a simple enough solution to your conundrum-- the Phoenix Court is a formation, not a unit. You could theoretically join all the Phoenix Lords together in one unit, but IC's cannot join together with a monstrous creature. As for a PL's exarch powers, they're still subject to the restriction on pg.21 of the Eldar codex, "Exarch powers can only ever affect Aspect Warriors and Autarchs in the same squad as the Exarch using them." As PL's are neither rank and file Aspect Warriors nor Autarchs, they can't benefit from another PL's Exarch powers.

That's what annoys me so much about the Phoenix Court, it's an amazing bit of fluff, and I love the bonuses it confers to the Avatar, but to be really effective it requires you to deploy 7 of the single most expensive models in the army all right next to each other, foot slog them, and keep them away from their respective Aspects where they tend to give the most benefit.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 02:35   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon Charybdis
As for a PL's exarch powers, they're still subject to the restriction on pg.21 of the Eldar codex, "Exarch powers can only ever affect Aspect Warriors and Autarchs in the same squad as the Exarch using them." As PL's are neither rank and file Aspect Warriors nor Autarchs, they can't benefit from another PL's Exarch powers.
PLs are exarchs, which are aspect warriors. Your quote above states why. I underlined the important part that says Exarchs use these powers. And each one has an aspect listed in the codex.

If we use your logic that they are not aspect warriors then they could not even use their own powers. How stupid would that be?

IMO whenever they get around to making a 5th ed codex for us they should make PLs an upgrade character and replace the exarch. That seems to be the way alot of the codexes are going. Arjac for SW, Telion for SM, etc.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 02:52   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

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Originally Posted by Mordekiem
If we use your logic that they are not aspect warriors then they could not even use their own powers. How stupid would that be?
If you choose to interpret it that way, then you run into the issue that they can't even be joined together in the first place: "Phoenix Lords cannot join Aspect Warrior squads that are not of their aspect." Either way, they're not benefiting from another Aspect's exarch powers.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 03:55   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

OK so if the powers work that way, I can only imagine the kind of headache you could get trying to do combat. I don't think any unit could survive against all the attacks coming from the 6 PL's plus the 10 attacks the Avatar would have...all at a high init, which should make the combat fairly simple for incoming attacks on the formation.

Yea also, until the avatar dies, they cant even fleet and assault, only run....how would that work actually? Could they assault a unit if they ran/fleet? All the PL's have fleet, the formation should have gave the avatar fleet as well.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 04:00   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

Fleet is not passed between units and attached characters. If one member of a squad lacks it, they all lose the ability.

However, as has already been said, the Court does NOT have to be attached to one another. They're a formation, not a squad. In fact, they can't attach to the Avatar because he's a Monstrous creature. I imagine the Phoenix Lords could group up if they really wanted though.
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Old 10 Jun 2010, 21:48   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

Well yes, you're right, they could group up, but no one in their right mind would field all 6 outside an apoc game, though if you did, that is one tough unit that most likely would not die.

So do IC's in formations differ than in squads? Or is it pretty much the same thing? According to the rules on pg 49 (i posted in above post) you can pick out MC in a squad if the entire squad is not also all MC.
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Old 11 Jun 2010, 02:05   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon Charybdis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordekiem
If we use your logic that they are not aspect warriors then they could not even use their own powers. How stupid would that be?
If you choose to interpret it that way, then you run into the issue that they can't even be joined together in the first place: "Phoenix Lords cannot join Aspect Warrior squads that are not of their aspect." Either way, they're not benefiting from another Aspect's exarch powers.
/shrug Your response does not make them any less of an aspect warrior.

As for your statement, it depends on how you interpret "squad". Is the PL a squad? The rulebook is a mite fuzzy on that. Kinda like the Good Book and shooting kneecaps. I don't believe the PLs are a squad, they are ICs. So they can join each other.

Even so you could have a PL join a non-aspect warrior unit (say defenders) and then have another PL join the same unit. They are all joining a defender unit, not an aspect warrior squad/unit.
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Old 11 Jun 2010, 03:35   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by munster208
Well yes, you're right, they could group up, but no one in their right mind would field all 6 outside an apoc game, though if you did, that is one tough unit that most likely would not die.

So do IC's in formations differ than in squads? Or is it pretty much the same thing? According to the rules on pg 49 (i posted in above post) you can pick out MC in a squad if the entire squad is not also all MC.
You say they would be tough to kill, but thats not exactly true, the one thing PLs lack, is that oh so important Inuverable save. Unless the Court offers them one?If not, power weapons and Demolishers, Plasma, Melta, Earthshakers, and the like, will makes fairly short work of these, even with Eternal Warrior.
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Old 11 Jun 2010, 19:07   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Pheonix Court of Khaine: How do all the rules work?

Munster, you still seem to be operating under the assumption that a formation functions as unit-- they do not. Formations composed of a number of units loosely organized into a larger group that benefit from special rules. Generally a formation will have the "Strike Force" which means they have to be deployed together, require that units/models in the formation stay within a certain distance in order to benefit from the formation's special rules, but they are not strictly obligated to.

As far as being able to "pick out" a Monstrous Creature, it sounds like you're reading an out of date rulebook, the current rule set is 5th edition, and the book has a bright red and orange cover. Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles are the exceptions to an Independent Character's ability to join a unit, so the Phoenix Lords cannot join the Avatar as a single unit.
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I can't believe games workshop are really that unorganised. The DE codex looks like it was made back in 1970 and yet they're more worried about making sure the space marines are walking around in diamond coated power armour and shooting tyranids with sequin covered bolters
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