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Two for one?
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Old 07 Mar 2010, 16:58   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Two for one?

I'm (re)building my army list, and I can't decide on splitting my Dire Avengers into two units. The original unit is a 10-man squad with a Holo-serpent. The two units that are created will probably both put into a Falcon.

Considering my main opponents play Guard and Tau, my questions are as following:

Is the ability to (out)flank my opponent worth the extra point cost?
Can the two units work without the need of the other backing it up? if yes:
Should the be complementary or should the be independent?
Should I take Exarchs in both units? If yes:
What build?
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Old 07 Mar 2010, 19:10   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

holo serpent? I hope you are not implying you are sticking holofields on your wave serpent, because it is not able to take that wargear.

Personally I wouldn't want to take five man squads of Avengers, they are simply to squishy that way, but then again I suppose it might be okay in something like a 500pt list depending on what else you're fielding. How many points are you working with?
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Old 08 Mar 2010, 00:14   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

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Originally Posted by Taldaneth
holo serpent? I hope you are not implying you are sticking holofields on your wave serpent, because it is not able to take that wargear.
It would also be god-player >... and illegal :-\. Taldaneth is right.

Using up HS slots with 2 Falcons to be transports limits you a bit in choices. I like a triple threat of Fire Prism, Holo-Falcon, and War Walker squadron in most scenarios. But if you're game for it that's fine. Personally I take "special" units like Banshees or Striking Scorps or a Seer Council in my Holo-Falcons.

Fire Prisms in general are absolute murder against Horde armies, so against IG it might be worth taking 2, but I won't pretend to be an expert against IG. They can also do some good XV8 dropping so you may wish to incorporate one or more. Points limit would be the major deciding factor here... and a possible list build.

[hr]
Personal opinion though; it's a toss up. Extra maneuverability is what Eldar are supposed to take advantage of but you may be spreading your firepower too thin or using points for transport that your army needs elsewhere. Also, in my experience, a 5 man Avenger squad would have a difficult time mopping up anything, just because standard issue, 5 Avengers don't have the shots to do it... Survivability takes a hit as well. They would definitely need backup if you decide to split them, but not necessarily from the other avenger unit.

For a backup unit, it kind of depends on what you're going after. Aspects are particularly good at backup for DA's, and you can usually choose what Aspect quite well based on your target.

Quick examples of combos off the top of my head:
IG infantry- probably Warp Spiders or Striking Scorpions. Outflanking Scorps are excellent cavalry, but it's hard to know where they'll end up and if they can get to CC. Warp Spiders are more reliable in terms of positioning but don't tie things down as well as Scorps because they don't rock the anti-horde CC.

Fire Warriors- Any number of CC units really, but the sheer number of shots from Spiders can be good.

XV8s- (yeah, I have shot down some XV8s with DA squads before) Shining Spears work them over quite well, but you should search for a Shining Spear Tactica or two if you want to use them, they're an investment. Fire Dragons are another good one (often ride in my Holo-Falcon) if you can get them there. Pop a few with the Dragons and mop up with DA's...

If you do split them, Exarchs with both units is a yes IMO; dual Shuricats is the best flavor from experience because of aforementioned lack of oomph. Then again; you might be able to get some good out of a Diresword against Crisis suits if you catch them, regardless it'd help against Fire Warriors, 4+'s are surprisingly resilient when you've only got Str 3... I recommend the Dual Shuricats though. Also, the extra Leadership is very important in small squads this mushy.

As for powers, Bladestorm is probably going to win out over Defend in most scenarios, but you don't even need Bladestorm. True, it would help boost your firepower for that surgical strike (again helping with the lack of power because you split them up), but you should remember only to use it if you won't be able to shoot next turn (in transport or CC or dead... :'()

Technically you'd get (if my quick math is right) 4(?) more shots if you split them up, gave both Exarchs Dual Shuricats (and I think another 1 if you used Bladestorm). Not much (especially given the cost increase) but that's another plus on top of bonus maneuverability...
[hr]

Ramble-ramble-ramble, eh? Sorry about that.

I have actually used 5 man DA squads quite well as supporting units hidden in Dakka-Serpents in higher PV lists, but they were definitely supporting and capturing units. In Annihilation games I pretty much always go with 10 because I like the concentrated dakka approach (Tau background)...

5 man squads in low PV games are good because, well, there isn't much out there at all. However, I've had some be surprisingly effective in higher PV games because they were simply ignored. Admittedly, pretty much everyone I've played has only had a year or two of experience.
[hr]

edit: I'm curious as to why you've asked this? Do you find yourself having problems with maneuverability or positioning?
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Old 08 Mar 2010, 18:39   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

Yeah, I've discovered the typo too. I'm so used to putting Holo in front of everything, I mess things up sometimes :-\

I've made some quick calculations, and although I am not allowed to put the actual cost up, the cost for a single unit of five, with a Falcon, is only slightly less then a unit of 10 with a Wave Serpent, and the Wave Serpent has twin-linked cannons
On the other hand, it's two scoring units instead of one...
Of course, both units had an Exarch with powers, so if I cut those the cost would be reduced, also the armor of the Falcon is significantly more.

I've had the same problem with Scorpions, although I am not thinking about stuffing Scorpions into a transport. I like the fact of them infiltrating a lot more, also fluff-wise...
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Old 08 Mar 2010, 21:22   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yummifoamycoffee
Of course, both units had an Exarch with powers, so if I cut those the cost would be reduced, also the armor of the Falcon is significantly more.
???

IIRC the armor for the Falcon and the Wave Serpent are the same... are you referring to the ability to have Holo-fields? Might wanna check the 'dex on that one.

As for giving advice, I stand by my requests for point limit estimates and whether you're finding your force to be less maneuverable than you want it to be.
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Old 09 Mar 2010, 12:28   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yummifoamycoffee
On the other hand, it's two scoring units instead of one...
FYI, Falcons and Serpents aren't scoring unless they are carrying valid Troops choices in 5th edition.
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Old 09 Mar 2010, 12:44   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigStripe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yummifoamycoffee
On the other hand, it's two scoring units instead of one...
FYI, Falcons and Serpents aren't scoring unless they are carrying valid Troops choices in 5th edition.
Which they will be: Dire Avengers.
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Old 09 Mar 2010, 23:28   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

Point being: "two scoring units instead of one" is inaccurate.
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Old 09 Mar 2010, 23:58   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Two for one?

In terms of a total of 10 Dire Avengers, one configuration gives 1 scoring unit and another gives 2. They're both in transports. One squad can only be in one transport. 2 squads can be in two. Thus, 2 scoring units instead of 1. That's what they mean.
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