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Still Filling the Gap:
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Old 12 Jul 2005, 15:23   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Still Filling the Gap:

Ok, a while ago I made a thread about how I can replace my Reapers in my Ulthwe force. This want of a change was prompted by my only loss I had ever suffered with my army to the hands of an Iron Warrior force. My Ulthwe were unbeaten in six years of gaming, so this loss come as a big surprise and was mainly down to Heavy Bolters mowing down my Reapers (due to the lack of shielding in 4th Ed) in the first turn.

This had happened before, since the advent of 4th Ed but I had always managed to pull through although it always did made the game far,far harder and this time I wasn't able to pull out a victory.

I have considered a Falcon. But some other options are now drawing me in.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Here is the original list:

6 man seer council:
Farseer: Eldamari: Witchblade/Fortune
Farseer: Ertia: Guide
Farseer: Sonqueel: MindWar
Warlock: Enhance
Warlock: Embolden
Warlock: Augment

Avatar

Wraithlord: BL/2 Flamers

5 Reapers: Exarch w/ EML, Fast Shot

12 Guardians(inc weapon crew): BL
Warlock: Conceal

12 Guardians(inc weapon crew): Star Cannon
Warlock: Conceal
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Here is the list modified with a Falcon rather than Reapers:

CraftWorld of Charon Strikeforce: Ulthwe Rules: 1000 Points.

8 man seer council:
Farseer: Eldamari: Witchblade/Fortune
Farseer: Ertia: Singing Spear/Guide
Farseer: Sonqueel: MindWar
Warlock: Enhance
Warlock: Embolden
Warlock: Augment
Warlock
Warlock

Avatar

Wraithlord: BL/2 Flamers

Falcon: StarCannon, ShuriCannon, Holofield

12 Guardians(inc weapon crew): BL
Warlock: Conceal

12 Guardians(inc weapon crew): Star Cannon
Warlock: Conceal

Points: 1002
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Now, the other options I've been thinking of are:

2 Vypers: Starcannons
1 Vyper: BL

The Starcannon Vypers are in a squad so that it is easier to use Guide on them.

Another Idea was:

2 Vypers: Starcannons
1 D-Cannon

The D-Cannon could just stay behind some terrain all game, out of LOS and shoot anything that gets too close. Also as it is a guess weapon it overcomes the bad BS of the crew (plus you don't even have to really guess anything anymore in 4th Ed).

I could use another Wraithlord but I think I'd have to smash my own hand with a claw hammer after each game because of the sickening beardyness of it. So despite this being the most potent option for my force it is the least likely to be chosen. Now don't get me wrong this is my only competitive force, as my others are all appallingly under-powered on the gaming table due to the fact I wanted a cool or fluffy army. So It's not that I want this force to be weak I just don't want it beardy and want it to relate at least in some way to the fluff.

I could have two War-Walkers, kitted out to the teeth with Starcannons. If so then I would give my other Black Guardian squad a BL. But Walkers as with Reapers have a huge problem with durability/survivability. Still at least with Walkers they are mobile, this will allow them to stay hidden until they are required so at least get 1 turn of shooting off which at the moment is far from a guarantee with Reapers.

Rangers are tempting, perhaps:

6 Rangers
1 Vyper: Starcannon, Shuri.cannon

This would provide me with some more infantry, survivable infantry that can take down quite heavily armoured infantry. Plus I still get an infantry killer Vyper. But offensively this just isn't as potent as some other options.

I will not take aspect warriors, firstly because it doesn't go with the fluff, secondly because they don't fill the role required. Wraithguard are out of the question, they don't perform in small games like this plus I just don't like them.

I'm also not keen on the idea of taking regular Guardians, I wanted an elite counter strike force consisting of Black Guardians and support, plus Guardians aren't all that reliable. Then again I could have a unit of:

20 Guardians.
Warlock with Singing Spear and Conceal.

I'd imagine that would pack quite a punch, but I'm unsure about it as it goes against the fluff/nature of my force. Also I usually let the enemy come at me and pick off key-targets and then counter attack hard with my big hitters. This unit is much more offensive, also It is supposed to be a precision force and a unit of 20 would be quite unwieldy.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

So what I'm looking for is just general thoughts, opinions, ponderings on the issue. Take into account that Ive only lost once with this in hundreds of games, so don't suggest something if you use it and it doesn't perform very well.

Anyway, still any feedback will be appreciated as Ive been stuck on this for months.
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 06:57   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

I've never played Ulthwe - but I like the idea of the three extra vypers with two starcannons and bright lance. That would pack quite a punch and would (I think) suit the fluff of your army well - fast, hard hitting and powerful.

However you've only lost once with your 'Reaper' force - is it really worth changing it? ???
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 09:55   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

I agree that it may have just been a fluke, and that 6 years with only one loss is an amazing track record.

However, if you are intent on changing your force composition...

Did you consider a Fire Prism Grav-tank? It would fulfill the role that the Reapers did - long range fire support, and it would be more survivable because it's range is impressive.
You would likely still have a few points left too. However, I don't own one of these, so I can't be sure that it wil perform.

I like the 2 Star Cannon Vypers, but instead of the third weapon being a BL I would suggest an EML as it is still effective against armour but can be turned against infantry on the turns that the other two Vypers need to target an Infantry unit.

The D-Cannon would also fill the role of fire support, but it wuld be even more vunerable to enemy fire, and short ranged in comparision.

I'm slightly confused as to why you don't want me to suggest Aspect Warriors, as the original unit (Dark Reapers) are Aspect Warriors themselves. And if you want a small specialised hard-hitting force, Aspect Warriors would be the first choice...
Still, up to you! :P
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 11:25   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

The main reason I don't want aspect warriors is because I'm mainly looking for a fire-power unit.

Also Dark Reapers fit in with the whole Ulthwe/Charon fluff (Charon to do with the boat that takes you to the after life, Reapers are very morbid etc. Ulthwe has strong ties with Reapers etc).

I could take a Fire-Prism with either a holo-field or Shuri.Cannon and a Vyper with a Starcannon or BL. That is actually quite tempting. The only problem with the Prism is that it only gets one major shot a turn that isn't as good against armour as a BL (still they look cool, which is always a plus). The range won't help to keep the Prism alive much though as I normally play on 4'x4' tables.

'The D-Cannon would also fill the role of fire support, but it would be even more vulnerable to enemy fire'

I agree, they are in most cases but if I took one I would place it behind some terrain that blocks LOS. Then it can fire with little risk of receiving return fire. Anyway I don't think this is a great option.

'However you've only lost once with your 'Reaper' force - is it really worth changing it?'

The Reapers have been lost in quite a few other games in 4th Ed, really early. Although I pulled out wins in all the other games it made life much more difficult. There are just very few ways I can think of keeping them alive as anybody that knows what they are doing will focus whatever they can on them in the first turn. Their range doesn't really help much as I usually play on 4'x4' tables so anybody even with a Heavy Bolter will be able to reach them if they deploy at the edge of their deployment zone.

Thanks for the feedback so far.
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 15:28   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

I don't think that a fire prism is a good replacement for a squad of dark reapers. Dark Reapers are great fire power units (a BS 5 EMS... ;D ;D) but a fire prism - although it's much tougher - will do absolutely nothing half the time and when it does will only kill the models under a small template - which if your opponent is sensible won't be very many. If instead you choose a vehicle you still might not hurt it - and even if you do you still have at best only a 50% chance of destroying it. Compared to what Dark Reapers can do - it's useless.

That's why I think a bunch of Vypers would be more useful and more tactically flexible. Starcannons are the most useful weapons for them but Rezzy makes a good point in that an EMS would be better than a bright lance. I think I agree with that.

Definitely don't get a D cannon. A single D cannon by itself is useless - it is more short ranged than Dark Reapers, more easily killed off than Dark Reapers and is just a points sink.
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Old 13 Jul 2005, 19:51   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

'more easily killed off than Dark Reapers and is just a points sink.'

I think one D-Cannon would probably be the most survivable of the lot, nestle it inside 6" of terrain at it can't be shot at and can shoot back. Still It won't cause much damage on its on I agree. I've decided that option is definatley out.

I used my army again today against that Iron Warrior army. I opted for the option:

2 Vypers: Starcannons
1 Vyper: BL

The BL Vyper did very little but absorbed a bit of fire-power. The Starcannon Vypers killed 13 Marines and a Basalisk (hit the side armour), they also took a bit of fire-power also. They probably lasted as long as they did because many Lascannons gunned at my Wraithlord. They both died in the end but I was very impressed with the performance (every time ive used Vypers in the past it has been 1 with Starcannon and Shuri-Cannon, In the past I've used that now and again).

The only problem I see is that it was a game at my home so it was on a 6'x4' table with some areas of terrain that would block LOS (such as a two tierd hill and a deep area of quite high ruins). This allowed them to utalise their speed etc. Tables at my local club and at my two local GW's are all 4'x4'. Something which would decrease this a little.

I won a 'solid victory' (425pts Difference in 1000pt game).

So I think I will pick those. I will still try a few of the other options though, just in case.

'but a fire prism - although it's much tougher - will do absolutely nothing half the time'

So will a BL Vyper but at least you get a template with a Prism, just paying the extra 50pts for the endurance and range benefits (not a bad trade off really). I would have to drop 2 Vypers for this though so I doubt I will.

I'm not sure about an EML instead of a BL though. BL's are better against anything AV13+ which is exactley the kind of armour that Starcannons etc have no chance of hurting. Plus I already have lots of Starcannons etc do deal with Infantry. The BL Vyper will be a specific tank hunter, although I suppose as it is Vyper mounted the EML can reach side and back armour which makes it a little better against armour. I think it would be a great option against any army that has a lot of 4+ saves (So Tau and Grenadier Guard forces).
__________________________________________________ _________________________

So, so far it is :

2 Vypers: Starcannons
1 Vyper: BL
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 14:15   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

Have you given any of those Vypers vehicle wargear?
If the BL continues to be ineffective you could always downgrade it to a Shuriken Cannon, and use it to soak up enemy fire, using the spare points to give the other two Vypers Spirit Stones?
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Old 15 Jul 2005, 14:22   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

Nope, no vehicle wargear so far.

I think it's just me and BL's, I never hit with them and when I do I always roll a 1 >. One day, they will work for me. They must!.

I will try the Spirit Stone suggestion though.

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Old 15 Jul 2005, 14:25   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Still Filling the Gap:

Lol, I have never used one! Shock horror. Oh no, I tell a lie, one I used two Shuriken Cannon Vypers as proxies for two BL Vypers, but they failed to destroy the Baal-Predator I had assigned them too.

I would try the Spirit Stones, they help no end.
If your opponent can only glance you (because you moved over 6") then reducing the risk by another 20% is great for 10 points per vehicle.
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